Prime Sonny Liston vs Prime Evander Holyfield, 15 rounds.

He cheated against two fighters blinding them so I called that lack of the heart.
Prime or not prime he quit and that's what counts, that's why he was never a champion caliber because champions don't quit.
Should Foreman quit against Holyfield and blame age for that or his lack of training?

 

Evander Holyfield vs Sonny Liston

What a fight to kick off fight card 3, Evander is in one war after another and what a fight this would have been. Another 50:50 contest that could go either way. Holyfield has been a bit unluckily to come up against three stylistic nightmare match ups consecutively.

So breaking down the tale of the tape, both fighters were very evenly sized, the Real Deal has about 1.5 inches in height and few pounds in weight however the difference is negligible. The main difference is Liston’s massive reach at 84 inches and huge fists measured at 15 inches when closed the largest of any heavyweight champion. One things for sure this has all out war written all over it. Liston’s biggest strength is his intimidation factor, but one thing we can guarantee is Evander will not be intimidated in the slightest. Stepping in the ring with a prime Bowe, prime Lewis, still great Tyson, a formidable Foreman and the tallest heavyweight champ in history in Valuev clearly shows balls the size of grape fruits. Liston might be unnerved himself not being able to bully or intimidate his foe might actually affect him mentally.

So how does the fight play out, if Evander sticks to his boxing he can clearly outbox Sonny without too many problems. Keep the fight at a distance and use his superior boxing IQ and control the pace and frustrate the Big Bear. Knowing Evander he wouldn’t’ be able resist entering into a firefight with Sonny and this is where the fight gets interesting.

Liston was clearly the stronger and harder puncher and would have Holyfield backing up and score a knockdown or two during the fight. Over 12 rounds this fight would definitely not be finishing early and towards the championship rounds Holyfield would start to take over and outland Liston and force the stoppage.

Verdict – TKO to Holyfield round 12

 

Holyfield by stoppage.

 

I think Liston is too static for a mobile guy like Holyfield. Holyfield decision. What can you say, Holyfield is underrated.

 

Sonny knocks him out in the mid-rounds. Too strong.

 

I assume you’re talking the Machen and first Ali fights. Liston DIDN’T cheat. Urban myth.

 

Liston had the overall skill, inside/outside game, durability, punch, jab (an entity unto itself) and stamina to either truly rock Holy’s world and see him out by mid rounds or by way semi accumulation in the later rounds.

 

All good you meant Liston is too robust and i agree. He didn't need roids to get to what was a natural weight and strength for him. He's somewhat like Foreman in that they fight above their weight - it's as if they have concrete mixed with their flesh. Really hard to move and somewhat akin to a tank.

Holyfields problem is that Liston would be someone that could box with him. Holyfield is a bit faster and quite skilled but Liston is immensely skilled himself (there sure won't be no long range uppercuts!) and has superb timing. Those go go gadget arms, skills and ATG jab will hold him in good stead on the outside. One also can't just burrow in and tie him up like a Tyson as he's a different animal up close. I think it starts off as a bit of a boxing match and evolves into a more upfront and personal match with Liston wearing him down and finishing him at some point. Holyfield has way too much intestinal fortitude to back off and cruise to a decision loss - he'll have a red hot go but is simply outgunned.

 

He did, Ali said it and Machen said it too.
It was not the first time he did that, blinding someone is showing his lacking of heart.

 

In instant reaction Ali thought he might’ve been deliberately blinded.

Along with Dundee, Ali came to LOGICALLY understand that it was an accident and not deliberate. Dundee himself confirmed this.

As to Machen, he ONLY complained of being blinded AFTER seeing/hearing Ali’s issues and complaint in Miami.

That’s 4 long years AFTER Eddie’s actual fight against Liston - during which Machen displayed NO issues re his vision.

As at the time, Machen made no complaint re being visually impaired.

We also know the Eddie was precariously placed in terms of his mental states at different times. He was trying to pull the rug on his legit loss to Liston so as to repair the outcome and get himself back in the picture.

The obvious conclusion is that Machen was making a false jump on to Ali’s histrionic, one man band wagon.

 

Dundee opinion is not valid because Ali was fighting not Angleo who tried to defend Liston but Liston still did it.

Because he thought that is not right to tell people how you were blinded because you would look like a sore loser.
Machen said that too.

So what, does that means that he was not blinded if he felt like that?
I GUESS you know better than Eddie, maybe you were fighting Liston for 12 rnds?
Liston is a man with no heart, deal with that.

 

No one probably knows for sure but it was likely something chemical in nature, that was intended to cause short term irritation to Clay’s eyes. Liston was taking a beating, the writing was on the wall for the champ & his corner had to resort to desperate measures.

Typically something common from a pharmacy that would eventually evaporate without trace…At the time, some form of liniment was the likely culprit.

It is not clear what the substance that Sonny Liston’s corner used to blind Muhammad Ali in their first fight, and there is still no definitive answer today. When Ali was blinded at the end of the fourth round, Muhammad Ali returned to his corner and told them to “cut the gloves” because he couldn’t see. He later said that he wanted the world to see the tactics that were used against him to defeat him. Ali’s trainer, Angelo Dundee talked him out of quitting, however, and simply told him to “run.” Ali did so until his eyes cleared.

Immediately after the fight, Ali said in several interviews that Liston was a dirty fighter and that the use of the substance was a dirty tactic. You can watch these interviews on You Tube. It was a claim he would eventually not dwell on, however, I’ve never seen or read of an interview in which he totally walked it back either.

 

So, to be CLEAR, you’re dismissing Dundee’s (whose opinion is as good as anyone else’s) rejection of foul play, made shortly after the fight and you are happy to reach out for and assign an ulterior motive for same....

....BUT, by the same token, you’re happy to speak on Machen’s behalf, trying to reason away WHY he didn’t claim being blinded as at the time of the Liston fight.

Hmmm.

The reason of “sore loser” doesn’t doesnt evaporate over time - in REAL time, Machen was happy to cite his injured hand as to why he didn’t do better - if he was “blinded” - he would’ve claimed that also, without hesitation.

Machen had a LOT of negative things to say about Liston, he obviously wasn’t a fan of Sonny, BUT, until Miami 64, he never murmured a word about being blinded.

He was simply trying to fix his cart to Ali’s histrionic wagon to excuse his own loss that occurred 4 L-O-N-G years prior ...a no brainer.

If you watch his fight vs Liston closely, you should notice that Machen isn’t fighting a “clean” fight himself - trying on the “dirt” against the preordained villain, Liston.

Against Ali, Liston had chemicals on both his eye and shoulder - it’s utterly feasible that they transferred to Ali’s glove and then from Ali’s own glove to Ali’s eyes.

Ali had a habit of pawing at his brow with his glove - this likely came from sparring when Ali would do same to adjust his slightly dislodged head gear.

Based on what you choose to arbitrarily accept and reject reflects that you’re clearly afflicted with confirmation bias.

That affliction has effectively “blinded” you to the true facts of the matter.

Cart before the horse - you WANT to believe that Liston was a cheat - even though he CLEARLY wasn’t.

In fact, Liston was one of the cleaner fighters. He didn’t grapple, hold or maul. He punched, he kept it open and pure.

During his fight against Eddie, it was Machen who often held and broke the action - Machen also held and hit AND hit on the breaks.

He was clearly trying to incite Liston to foul himself.

Jimmy Young also did a bit of that to upset Foreman - but he was also happy to cry foul if he thought Foreman himself had somehow strayed from the strict MOQ playbook.

As to knowing better, I certainly know better than you. Here endeth the lesson.

 

Immediately after the fight, Ali said in several interviews that Liston was a dirty fighter and that the use of the substance was a dirty tactic. You can watch these interviews on You Tube. It was a claim he would eventually not dwell on, however, I’ve never seen or read of an interview in which he totally walked it back either.

However, getting back to what the substance actually was, Dundee conjectured after the fight that Liston’s corner used “Monsel’s Solution” on a cut that then-Clay had opened up a cut under Liston’s left eye in the third round. Monsel’s Solution was legal then but has since been banned. Dundee theorized that Clay probably put his forehead on Liston’s head at some point and the substance got into eyes along with the sweat. During the fight Dundee got a sponge and poured water into Clay’s eyes to cleanse whatever was there, but before he did that he put his pinkie into Clay’s eye and then he put it into his own eye. Dundee said that it “burned like hell. There was something caustic in both eyes.”

Eddie Machen, a heavyweight contender who had lost a 12-round decision to Liston in a valiant effort to defeat him, said that he believed that Liston’s handlers made deliberate use of an illegal medication to temporarily blind Clay. According to Machen:

“The same thing happened to me when I fought Liston in 1960. I thought my eyes would burn out of my head, and Liston seemed to know it would happen. Clay did the worse thing when he started screaming and let Liston know it had worked. Clay panicked. I didn’t do that. I’m more a seasoned pro, and I hid it from Liston.”

Eddie had a somewhat different take on it than Dundee, Machen reasoned that Liston’s cornermen would rub medication on Sonny’s shoulders, which would then be transferred to his opponent’s forehead during clinches and drip into the eyes.

Meanwhile, Philadelphia Sports Reporter Jack McKinney said that one of Liston’s cornermen, Joe Pollino, told him that Liston had ordered him to rub an “astringent compound” on his gloves before the fourth found. Liston then shoved his gloves into Clay’s face during that round. I read another version in which it was reported that McKinney himself was sitting close enough to Liston’s corner to hear Liston say it himself. Who knows?

Strangely, there were a number of investigations after the fight to investigate whether the fight was legitimate. These investigations were performed by the Miami Boxing Commission, the Florida State Attorney General’s Office and even the FBI did a secret investigation. However, all of these investigations focused on whether Liston actually had a bad shoulder which hurt enough to cause him to quit. All of the entities found that Liston had legitimate grounds to quit, however, none of them gave much attention to the issue of the substance that made Clay go blind. If anything, the notion of Liston purposely trying to blind Clay gave more credence to the fact that Liston was not trying to lose the fight but to win it.

As to your second question, Liston nor his corner, was ever reprimanded for using a substance to blind Ali, because such a claim was never made to the Miami Boxing Commission or before any other forum. Ali’s camp did not pursue the issue. Winning seems to make everything else go away. And, besides, there was a rematch coming up in which even more money was about to be made.
Sonny Liston, a cheater and the guy who quit twice.

 

Still running with confirmation bias.

Yes, I know all the facts and claims, and they have been duly weighed in.

To repeat ad nauseam, Machen made no complaint as at the time - NOTHING stopping him from doing so IF he truly suspected Liston of blinding him.

At the very least, point to anytime during the fight when Machen was having any issue with his eyes?

That’s right, there aren’t any such examples. If your eyes are truly burning you CAN’T hide it - just as Ali couldn’t hide it.

Again, Machen was just talking himself up over a non existent impairment - the lie also allowed Eddie to put himself in a better light than Ali who “failed” to hide his unbearable discomfort, whereas Eddie kept his cool and didn’t “let on”.

Surely you appreciate how inane Eddie’s explanation and woefully belated claim
sounds?

For all the proof he DIDN’T provide, Eddie could’ve just as easily claimed his jaw was broken but he stoically hid it so Liston didn’t catch on - and that would only be relevant during the fight - not something you’d have to keep secret AFTER the fact of the fight.

Again, speaking of “knowing better”, you choose to assume that Eddie knew better than Ali’s up close and personal cornerman Dundee?

Nothing you wrote supported your prejudiced view that Liston both cheated and quit inappropriately - as you again stated in your last line.

You stated yourself that his injury was upheld to be legitimate.

I can only honestly say now I’ve just been diagnosed with bursitis.

I can still use my left arm, no weakness but it ****ing hurts like hell when I do - like sharp electric shocks running through the shoulder, back and down the arm with every move.

Always hurts and sometimes it hurts that much more acutely than at other times.

I’m not crying poor - it’s just that I can give a personal testimony re the condition. Looking forward to a cortisone injection.

If I was in a fight with the arm the way it is now, I would certainly think I was ****ed if I were to fight on too much longer.

Me and my man Sonny are kindred souls.

Sonny shoved his glove in Ali’s face?

What make you of Ali’s open handed jab as seen below? A bit of heel, a bit of lace, nice way to start or exacerbate an existing cut?

Keep your eye on both combatants, not just the one.

https://www.gettyimages.com.au/deta...onny-liston-in-the-sixth-news-photo/517262124