Prime Sonny Liston vs Prime Evander Holyfield, 15 rounds.

Okay, so from your end, much ado about nothing.

You went from 2 blinded mice to 4.

How convenient.

You’re searching furiously to confirm your bias - but we only have one primary source for a complaint - Machen - and 4 years after the fact.

I asked WHEN did Machen show discomfort - you couldn’t produce any evidence so went off at a tangent instead.

Where are the primary sources for Folley and Valdez’s claims? You haven’t even produced that. You don’t have any. Period.

You took what you read on a forum as gospel - because you WANT to believe it.

Of course it’s reasonable to say Machen was telling a porky pie - your reasoning as to why he kept it a “secret” UNTIL after the Liston-Ali fight is incredibly naive.

WHY didn’t he lodge a complaint after the fight? Didn’t want to sound like a sore loser?

Lol, he talked like a sore loser after the fight anyway (only IF “my” hand wasn’t damaged etc.) - and making the claim POST Miami Feb64 doesn’t make him sound like any less of a sore loser. In fact, it made him sound like MORE of a sore loser.

Why would I be butthurt if it was reliably proven that Liston did cheat? It wouldn’t worry me and I’d accept it. No skin off my nose.

What you can’t accept is that there is NO evidence to suggest that Liston did cheat - and you certainly haven’t provided any.

If Eddie said Liston sawed his (Machen’s) leg off during the fight - I suspect you’d buy that too. I mean Eddie was in the ring - he’d know “better”.

You haven’t even provided satisfactory evidence to prove that Valdez and Folley even made such claims - let alone CONFIRM when they made those claims.

You know this. The wheels have well and truly fallen off your argument.

You’re sitting in your red Wiggles car and it ain’t moving - but you’re still tooting the horn.

Instead of providing due evidence, you’ve referenced @swagdelfadeel for a second time at least - pure deflection and wholly inappropriate.

Let me tell you, @swagdelfadeel is an excellent poster and knows far better than you also.

Do you know the book/movie The Day of the Triffids?

In that story, a green meteor shower caused anyone who witnessed it to go blind.

Perhaps you could write your own sci fi, horror story - The Day of the Sonny?

 

I just called..to say..I can’t see you…

Sorry Stevie.

 

That was ****ing hilarious OMG!!!!!!!! I'ma not forgetting this one.

 

I think that we dont have enough footage of prime Sonny and whatever we have is against fighters who are not in Evander's league except Floyd Patterson who suffered from a rocky chin, and versus the greatest of them all.

But as someone pointed out Evander was also using PED's and he lost to Riddick Bowe two out of three.

In short...I dont know who'd win.

 

There's plenty of footage of prime Sonny.

 

I found 2 more and I think that is what bothers you the most.

So he should step out of the ring and say I have eye discomfort so you would believe him?
I said Collins Resto fight no eye discomfort but what happened after the fight?

I have and provided them, you can find them online but I guess it hurts because it's your hero cheating isn't it?
Even if they said that you would find a way to discredit their opinion because who can say anything bad about "almighty" Liston.

 

You’re right.

In the face of such underwhelming “evidence”, I’m shattered.

I’m throwing away my fully articulated Sonny Liston action figure with the notably oversized hands. No point pretending anymore.

Btw, Ray Charles never forgot what Sonny did to him. Never.

With his all his other senses reactively and necessarily heightened (you know, like Daredevil) , Ray trained diligently with a pistol to one day exact his revenge on Liston.

Alas, Ray and Sonny never crossed paths again - lucky for Liston - but, as a nice byproduct, Ray’s long term training and preparedness worked a treat when dealing with would-be thieves: -

This content is protected

 

Holyfield would have his moments for sure and would be Listons best win but I see him getting stopped in a great fight, Holyfield would do what he always done against bigger stronger intimidating fighters, take it to them, Liston wouldn’t melt like Tyson did, he would use his jab but he would meet fire with fire and he obviously had more firepower than Holyfield which would be the difference here, if Holyfield boxed and moved he’d have a better chance, but he wouldn’t, it wasn’t his character

 

Enough of evidences that proves he cheated, even if 3 lied one was true.
So the guy cheated and he was a quitter.

It is easier to say: Sonny Liston is my hero, and even even if he cheated I don't want people to know that.

Atleast I would respect you more.

 

There is NO evidence - just your own clear bias and gullibility.

Among the other many holes in your Swiss Cheese argument, SHOW me the actual, direct claims (quoted) made by Folley and Valdez.

YOU locate and point to them - they’re your reference points, not mine. No more cop outs.

I mean it’s baseline logic to understand that if you can’t see any evidence of Machen being blinded and/or visually impaired during the Liston fight then his eyes were obviously NOT contaminated. That’s significant context.

Added to that context was the contextual FACT that Machen didn’t complain during or after the fight - though he did still offer excuses re his performance - but being blinded wasn’t one of them.

Adding the cherry on top - unlike Super Eddie, Ali’s eyes were CLEARLY contaminated in Miami and then, ONLY after that clear FACT, surprise, surprise, Eddie came out 4 years after the FACT of his fight with Liston to claim he was “blinded” also????

You’re simply NOT applying any logic or common sense to your analytical treatment. As far as actual evidence goes, you KNOW you’re empty handed.

You’re falsely suggesting that Liston is a HERO to others, thus swaying their views - when the ACTUAL TRUTH is that Liston is your predetermined, villain, who must be guilty without having to produce any actual evidence.

Why would I care if you respected me or not? In case you’re somehow still wondering, I don’t care…at all.

Clearly, I know far better than you on this subject and I’m certainly not the only one that does.

You’ve got some work to do. Stop with the hot air already.

Start researching and produce the primary quotes and WHEN those alleged claims were made - simples.

 

Yeah, 4 fighters lied because there is no evidence.
I would trust more Machen and Ali than you and your tryings to explain how Liston did not cheat.

 

He said only because he felt that way, he was not butthurt and he said it just to show that Muhammad Ali was loudmouth about that.
But that still means they were both blinded.

 

Liston in a war.

 

Agree 100%! Holyfield would battle to the very end--he was a warrior! But Liston would have too much reach, too much power, AND too much boxing skill for EH--eventually he crumbles.

 

You’re just repeating yourself sans primary sources which you OBVIOUSLY don’t have.

I’ve actually seen and read the 12 greatest rounds segment and excerpt from Nigel Collins Boxing Babylon respectively.

NO evidence whatsoever provided.

If you had ACTUALLY watched/read same also, you’d know that there is no mention of Folley (or Valdez) from either “source”.

The perils of accepting Internet forum here say as gospel WITHOUT actually doing the research yourself.

But of course when it comes to Liston, at the least, you’re afflicted by confirmation bias and buy anything negative said about the man.

If I told you the sky is blue and you didn’t believe me, quite obviously it wouldn’t concern me one bit. The major disadvantage in terms of factual perception would be yours, not mine.