Prime to Prime Jim Jeffires vs Ezzard Charles

Valid points ,but if you are fighting men up to 40lbs smaller [ box rec gives Jeffries a 67lbs advantage here] and most of them past their prime and coming out of retirement ,what then? Shouldnt you score a ko?

 

I do think Sharkey prime ended after the 2nd Jeffries fight. Shareky's style was an aggressive swarmer who took punishment. So Jeffries did not Ko Sharkey. Marciano took journeyman Ted Lowry the distance twice, and was stunned in one fight where news papers GASP, felt he should have lost the decision. There a huge difference here, and I don't think Marciano had an injury in either of those fights.

Choysnki ran and did nothing the entire 2nd half of the fight. Its interesting to see how inconstant newspapers can be. The Brooklyn eagle on line report says Choysnki was down more than one time. Jeffries clearly says he floored Choynski, who was the " Name fighter " in that match three times in his book Two fisted Jeff.

 

Well ,Choynsky was kod 11 times and ,according to Box rec, was conceding 67lbs to Jeffries, draw your own conclusions.

 

Oh dear, we have been over this before. I give you a few names. I do hope you remember this for the next time around...

Historian Gilbert Odd (1974 p 18) said that Jeffries was the strongest of the heavyweight champions in both hitting power and build.

Historian Grombach (1977 p 50) said Jeffries was a natural puncher who was so big and powerful that he could deliver damaging blows from an almost extended left-hand that did not have to travel more than a few inches.

Historian Keith (1969 p 127) asserted, "Jeffries probably owned the deadliest left hook the prize ring has ever known."

Tex Rickard, famed fight promoter, said "There's no style to him, but he's the hardest hitter I ever saw. And that includes Dempsey" (see McCallum 1975 p 15; Durant 1976 p 47). Diamond (1954 p 60) described Jeffries, "he was something more than a mere slugger. He was a rough, tough battler, with a mighty punch."

Historian Cooper (1978 p 107) remarked, "James J. Jeffries was one of the ring's indestructibles" and asserted, "Apart from having a punch that might have knocked a horse out, Jeffries' greatest asset was sheer patience."

Ring Magazine top 100 punchers, which was done in a pound for pound sense had Jeffries at #23...and Jeffries was the heaviest man from spot 1 to 23.


As for Jeffries KO's where the ref could have counted well beyond ten, he knocked Henry Baker under the ropes where Baker stayed for quite some time. He had Jackson out in the ropes as well, caught like a puppet who's stings have been tangled. Fitzsimmons was unconscious in their first fight. Finnegan was also down for well over 45 seconds.

 

This is a terrible analogy.
Lowry was stopped three times in 144 fights his first stoppage was to Lee Q Murray who was 203 lbs to Lowry's 181,Murray had 61 fights up to that time.,it was Lowry's 10th.
Lowry was next stopped by Rusty Payne who halted nearly 50% of his opponents.Lowrys third and final stoppage in 144 fights was against Harry Mathews who sports 61 kos in 90 fights.
Choynsky was kod 11times.and sometimes by ex welters,like Kid McCoy,All Lowry's three losses were to bigger men.
VERY bad comparison.
Lowry fought
Reynolds x3
Marciano x2
Murray x3
Lastarza x2
Bivins
Brion
Maxim
Slade
Muscato
Oma x2
Payne
Wade
Fox x2
Moore
Agramonte
3 stoppages in 144 fights ,and in each stoppage he conceded weight.

 

The analogy is fine. Jeffries beat up and floored a hall of fame guy ( Sharkey ) in his prime in each of their fights, but failed to stop him.

Marciano failed to floor a journeyman in Lowry in both of their fights, was stunned by Lowry, and might have lost the first fight if you go by some papers.

HUGE difference.

I agree Choynski did not have a top level chin, but he was extremely fleet a foot. Had Jeffries re-matched Choynski as champion, he would have Ko'd him.

I take it you satisfied with historians calling Jeffries a big puncher now. If you want to take my word for it, most historians from 1890 to 1969...men who lived in that era and had access to films, first hand testimonials, interviews and such felt Jeffries was a #1-5 top ATG. Many said 1. In fact, the Mcallum survey with no less than 12 historians did a poll. Jeffries came out #1, above Johnson, Louis, and Dempsey. I have about 50 separate opinions and lists.

If you want to use the fighters opnion on who the best was, Fitz, Corbett, Sharkey, Langford, Johnson, Burns, and Dempsey all said Jeffries was the best.

This should at the very least qualify Jeffries as the top 3 pre 1970.

Marciano was never thought of as a top 5 guy in the above dates by the vast majority of folks.

 

Is this the Gilbert Odd who ranked Jack Johnson as the greatest fighter he had ever seen?
Prior to Jeffries fighting Johnson, Rickard had not seen Jeffries fight, did you know that?So on what did he base his opinion ?
Historian Keith? Who he?:rofl
Historian Cooper ? Who he?:rofl
NOWHERE DOES GROMBACH STATE JEFFRIES WAS AN ALLTIME PUNCHER.:-(
Henry Bakeratsch???? How could we overlook Henry,he is so famous,GET REAL.This by the was was a 9thrd tko not a knockout.
Off again on again Finnegan,a man who had 6 fights and won 1 of them ,and was conceding 60lbs to Jeffries.
BOY ARE YOU DESPERATE!

Jackson was a dying man stricken with TB ,and an alcoholic to boot.
No satisfactory answers to confirm your unfounded assertions ,as per usual.
Dont embarrass yourself further .

 

I am far from satisfied Jeffries was an alltime puncher ,in fact I confidently state he was not.
Sharkey's quoted opinion was that Johnson was the best fighter of his time."and I say that honestly because I hated the man ".
Corbett stated to Fleischer that Johnson was the greatest boxer he ever saw, this is in the Ring.
Dempsey was a huge Jeffries booster,but we are getting away from the original argument .We were comparing ONE SHOT KO POWER.
Dempsey MANY times stated that Marciano was superior to himself for one shot ko ability,so many times in fact that it is irrrefutable.

In an issue of the RING Entitled Dempsey battles Fleischer ,Dempsey picked Marciano as the greatest puncher of all time among the Heavyweights.I have it here now.Jeffries did not get a mention.
.Louis said Marciano hit him, harder than any fighter and stated Schmeling was not in his class as a puncher.
Walcott, live on TV in the programme "HOW IT WAS",said Marciano had better one shot power than Louis. THIS IS AVAILABLE ON YOU TUBE.
You are entitled to say Jeffries was better than ANY heavyweight who has ever lived, should you wish to do so,but if you want to regain ANY credibilty, DO NOT RANK HIM AS AN ALL TIME PUNCHER.
JOHNSON ,who fought Jeffries,Choynsky,and Fitzsimmons rated both Choynsky and Fitz above Jeffries for power, men whom Jeffries outweighed by up to 67lbs.
I highly doubt Jeffries could match Sullivan for one shot power ,so of those Champions that preceded him,he only surpasses the light hitting Corbett.A man 37lbs lighter.
Please stay on topic to be fair to other posters.

 

Doesnt Jeffries also say he was drugged in the Johnson fight ,in that book? atsch
Which, by the way, was not his book ,it was written by Hugh Fullerton.

 

On the subject of Jeffries power I see mixed opinion among contemporary observers.

Some who saw him fight said that he was not in the class of Dempsey or Louis as a puncher while some maintained that he was.

What I will say is that Jeffries requiring rounds to finish off his opponents was likley as much a function of his style as lack of power. He was an atrition fighter pure and simple.

 

Given that Jeffries career ended in 1904 ,unless you include his brave but pathetic challenge of Johnson in 1910, an affair in which he exhibited no power , or strength.How many of those observers who saw Jeffries fight would still be above ground in the 1950's when Marciano was leaving the likes of Layne and Walcott for dead?
Even those who were around for the Louis era would have been very old men wouldnt you say?
You can only truly judge what you have seen ,be it on film or in the flesh , do you agree?
How many of those who saw Jeffries in 1904 ,saw Marciano fight in the 50's?

 

Pleant of people who saw prime Jeffries from ringside also saw Dempsey.

A few saw Louis.

Obviously verry few if any saw Marciano.

The usualy comparison is Jeffries Dempsey and opinions seem to be mixed. Some people question Jeffries power but nobody ever questions Fitzsimmons or Dempseys power.

I personaly think that Jeffries was one of the hardest hitters of his era but am not sure how he compares the the best from other era's.

 

Marciano's friend Nicky Sylvester stated that Marciano was sick for the Lowry fight which he looked crude and sloppy in. He said he had the flue which explains his low weight so he was feeling "weak."

He in no way lost that fight despite whatever findings you may had. That's a silly opinion to hold.

 

You asked for names on historians who said Jeffries was a powerfull hitter, and I provided some. You are embarrsing yourself here, not I. Sometimes I pity you.

 

I think the important analogy is the Marciano one because, obviously Charles fought a prime Marciano,and we would hope to get a line on his possible form against Jeffries from that ,would you agree?
I think it is debatable who wins a fight between Jeff and Ezzard,so much depends on the rules of said fight, but not who is the harder puncher ,between Jeffries and Marciano.
In your own opinion ,do you think Jeffries was a harder one shot puncher than John L Sullivan?