Prime Tyson and Prime Dempsey

I know its very hard to realistically match 2 heavyweights almost 80 yrs apart but I do think Dempsey is highly underated on ESB...Dempsey could hit and had fast hands so did Tyson...Dempsey was 6"1 1/2 and if they fought today would proberly be around 215 and solid....even though Dempsey was the first real modern heavyweight Roaring 20's I think him and Iron Mike share a lot of qualities...Would Mike pursue recklessly when he felt Jacks power or visa versa...anyway one thing for sure is this is a war...I think both would be suceptable early in the fight, both were fast starters...Jack may have had better stamina but both men were not really known for late power...Dempsey was mean and so was Mike, Dempsey got off the floor to win Mike never did...would this be another Foreman/Lyle but only in fast motion...could it be a blow out...yes...but honestly I can not overate Tyson or underate Dempsey....this is a tough fight...and I would not by any means count Jack Dempsey out.

 

Tyson was never past his prime but the fact that he beat better fighters than Douglas before and after he fought him suggests that he was not prepared for that fight, In any case

Jack Dempsey lost to Fireman Flynn in 1 whole round and he lost to a blown up light heavy in Gene Tunney.

Lennox Lewis lost to Oliver McCall and Hashim Rahman.

First of all Jack Dempsey never weighed anything close to 218 lbs. It was only once in his career weighed 200 which is still an 18 lbs deficit to Evander the night he fought Tyson.

Apparently with Tyson detractors Evander Holyfield is a blown up cruiserweight only when its convenient but otherwise he's a great Heavyweight Champion. Michael Moorer's best win was against Evander Holyfield, take that away and he's got nothing on Ruddock.

Bruce Seldon had a belt around his waist, Tyson did what he needed to do to get it from him. Lou Savarese is also one of George Foreman's top ten names on his resume. Buster Mathis was the 2nd fight coming off a 4 year layoff get over it.

Tyson never fought Bowe because of breakdown's on both camps. The only time Tyson could have fought him would have been in 1996 after Tyson came out of jail. By that time he was going through the Golota fights and getting battered in the process. Bowe lost marketability. Tyson Holyfield I still holds the record as a top 10 PPV Event. So it clearly made Business sense. Francois Botha also fought Lennox Lewis and Wladimir Klitschko after Mike Tyson not to mention that he was a former titleholder who fought in Mike's under card against Michael Moorer. If he's such a crappy name maybe you should throw some blame around to the guys who fought him afterward and Michael Moorer for that matter.

Refer to SuziesQ's post. Tyson fought all the top flight contenders and title holders in the 80s. He would beat the alpha champs and then he would beat the guys they beat for the title. He fought all comers during his first reign. During his second reign he started collecting belts again but was derailed by a fellow ATG.

Tyson would never have lost to George Foreman. Not a single credible expert would predict that Tyson loses to 90s Foreman.

Irrelevant.

Ruddock at the time was ranked as the number 2 heavyweight in the world and there was a concensus. You tend to look at things in hindsight and then forsight when its convenient. But Ruddock was a big deal back then and Tyson took care of him.

What made Foreman such a threat?

Actually Foreman had nothing to beat Tyson with. He couldnt wait for him to tire out because his own stamina was shaky. Tyson is no Michael Moorer. All this talk about fighting a 41-42 year old Foreman why no praise for destroying a 38 year old Larry Holmes who was a greater fighter than George?

You're acting like George Foreman dominated him. Foreman was a highlight reel for Michael Moorer for just about 9 rounds before he got caught with a lucky punch. Moorer lost that fight more than George won it.

That version of Gerry Cooney that Foreman fought shouldnt even be mentioned. Better yet lets look at his win column.

Now George Foreman fought 81 times in his career so it shouldnt be unreasonable to come up with 15 names on his resume that would outweight Tyson's top 15.

To top it off, I bet you that Alex Stewart falls within Foreman's the top ten names.

Your move.

 

Great, drag his tattooed ass into the ring right now.

He was not prepared for an ass-whipping, that's certain enough. But from Buster to McBride, when has Mike Tyson ever been ready for the ass-whipping he absorbs?

But this is how the Tyson Apologists roll; it wasn't that Buster beat Tyson's ass in the ring, the real story is that Mike "was not prepared for that fight".

And what can you tell us about this fight?

Gene Tunney is an all-time great light-heavyweight, while Dempsey was at the absolute end of his career. There's no more shame in this than in Larry Holmes losing to Michael Spinks; Larry is still an all-time great.

Boy, did he ever!

Talk about irrelevant. Holyfield juiced himself up on steroids to get to that 218 and never had to carry that weight 15 rounds. Go look at the "Tale of the Tape" for the two fighters and you'll see they were extremely similar in size, regardless of who you'd favor in a pose-off. Dempsey was leaner and better-proportioned.

He's always a blown-up cruiserweight. He's also a steroid junkie and a cheat. He also beat Mike Tyson's ass 6 ways to Sunday and would beat it again tomorrow if Mike wanted to make a go of it.

Take away Tyson's testicles and he's got nothing on Robin Givens!

Now you've overplayed your hand. See, the key to effective trolling is *subtlety*.

Thus the media darlings Frank Bruno and Francois Botha.

I think their second fight is still the all-time record for boxing PPV. Tyson really bitched out on that one, talk about a guy who "lost marketability."

How'd that fight go?

Why, were they avoiding Riddick Bowe too?

I wouldn't wish that on Don King himself!

He fought Larry Holmes' leftovers. Then he fought Larry Holmes. Then he got his ass handed to him by a journeyman fatbody named Buster Douglas.

"Derailed"? He got his ass beat, then got his ass beat again and took the chicken**** way out by getting himself intentionally DQ'd. All against an overblown cruiserweight in his mid-30s coming off 3 losses in his last 7 fights.

http://www.eastsideboxing.com/boxing-news/lotierzo1609.php

All I asked you is what Ruddock's best career win was. Well, what was it? And as long as we're talking about "concensus" rankings, can you post the top-10? If Ruddock was #2, I'm curious about the rest of the field.

If Ruddock was such a big deal, what were his big wins? Mike Weaver? James "Broadass" Broad? Michael "The Fat Crackhead" Dokes? Bonecrush Smither?

What year was this, 1984?

His abililty to kick Tyson's ass, I suppose.

Look again. He has these two enormous soupbones on the ends of his arms, he'd beat Tyson with those.

Who lasted longer against Evander Holyfield - well-conditioned superman Tyson or fat lazy Foreman?

You're absolutely right. Moorer was capable of beating Evander Holyfield.

What is it with you Tyson apologists and your shameless denegration of other fighters? First you say "the fact that [Tyson] beat better fighters than Douglas before and after he fought him suggests that he was not prepared for that fight" and now Foreman didn't win, his opponent lost.

Comparing resumes is terribly unfair to Tyson. Who did Tyson ever beat comprable to a prime Joe Frazier? Who did Tyson ever beat who could stare a prime Kenny Norton in the eye?

George Foreman was stopped only once in his entire career, by arguably the greatest heavyweight champion of all-time. Tyson has gone tits-up to everyone from Buster Douglas to Danny Williams. And here you are, wanting to compare resumes? For shame.

- Joe Frazier
- Kenny Norton
- Michael Moorer
- George Chuvalo
- Ron Lyle
- Boone Kirkman
- Gergorio Peralta
- Pierre Cotzier
- Gerry Cooney
- Dwight Braxton, Bert Cooper, Scott LeDoux, and, uh, what the hell, Lou Savarese. I'd include Alex Schultz but I don't consider that a real win for Foreman.

 

I forgot to add. Larry Holmes did not unify one belt in 7 years. Mike Tyson unified all 3 major belts in ONE year span. Something no champion has done since. Unbelievable. Tyson cleaned up the big mess that holmes left.

Evil,

I boxed at the same gym as Riddick Bowe. He told me Tyson ducked him, but he also said that if tyson had been in his prime he would have kayoed holyfield.

 

How could he beat tyson with those when he couldnt beat alex stewart or tommy morrison with those?

foreman did not beat a prime version of joe frazier

 

who did better against Savarese and Stewart?


Tyson KO 1 Stewart Bloody Foreman W 10 Majority Stewart

Tyson KO 1 savarese Foreman W 12 split Saverese

 

ironchamp, tyson may have been past his best vs Holy, however its the manner in which he lost which is relevant. He shouldnt have quit like that.

 

That list is **** poor beyond the top5. All of them are journeymen or washed up. Stewart is as good as anyone after Chuvalo (who i'd swap with Lyle).

 

Well Alex Schultz was never a real win for Foreman. And not being picky here but the idea was to produce 15 names not 14 and truthfully after Lyle the names are a pretty dismal bunch.

Ok, so now lets look at Tyson

Michael Spinks
Larry Holmes
Pinklon Thomas
Donovan 'Razor' Ruddock
Andrew Golota
Tony Tucker
Tony Tubbs
Frank Bruno
Frans Botha
Tyrell Biggs
James 'Bonecrusher' Smith
Carl 'the truth' Williams
Trevor Berbick
Lou Savarese - in much better fashion
Bruce Seldon

2 Lineal Champions
9 Former Titlists

Tyson simply has a better body of work.

 

I think four of these were in the top 10 when Foreman beat them. He was just a little better than 50/50 against ranked opposition.

Tyson's top 10 (Spinks, Holmes, Berbick, Thomas, Tubbs, Tucker, Ruddock, Smith, Williams and Stewart) is way better than Foreman's, and his top 15 (add Golota, Biggs, Seldon, Tillis and Bruno) is so much better it's not even comparable.

Sure, you can nitpick amongst these names, but if we do the same with Foreman's wins there is hardly going to be anything left.

 

I checked The Boxing Register official ring record book


The only men Foreman fought in his comeback who were rated top 10 by Ring Magazine were Evander Holyfield, Michael Moorer, and Tommy Morrison.

 

i would put bruno over stewart

 

Yeah, I agree. It was quite hastily made up, just to give a clear picture of the difference between their records.

 

Well, then he was exactly 50/50 against ranked opposition.

 

Tyson beat Tubbs who Holmes should of fought but never did, Pinklon Thomas who Holmes DEFINITELY should of fought and avoided, blasted out Spinks who Holmes had two tough decisions with, took out Bruno like no one ever did before or after, broke down and stopped unbeaten Olympic Gold Medalist Tyrell Biggs, won a landslide decision against 35-0 IBF Champion Tony Tucker, combined with destroying Holmes and his "leftovers" as you call them. What makes Tyson destroying Holmes former victims impressive is that Holmes fought them when they were green and struggled with them a bit, while Tyson fought them when they were experienced and probably closer to their peak than when Larry fought them, but beat all of them more convincingly than a prime Holmes did.

Ruddocks run from 86-90 is under rated today. He went 16-0 with 15 of them ending inside the distance over this span, including 3 wins over former titlists in Dokes, Smith, and Weaver.

His KO win over Dokes was a very good win, considering Dokes was just a year removed from one of the finest HW wars ever with Holyfield, and Ruddock hit him with one smash and he was out in 4.

Bonecrusher Smith was the WBA Champioin just two years prior, and was still a big, strong, durable hard hitting fighter who didn't go down easy. Ruddock took him out in 7 in a fight which showcased his recovery skills.

Ruddocks only fight which lasted the distance was against former WBA champ Mike Weaver who had knocked out Carl Williams 6 months prior, showing he was still a very capable fighter. There was a thread on this not too long ago, and most believed that Ruddock won the fight by a clear margin and it didn't deserve to be a SD.

In 1990 Ruddock was viewed as a live threat against Tyson and was viewed as the world's number one HW when Tyson was sent to prison. He was actually picked by many as the favorite over Lewis, this shows how highly he was thought of. Ruddock is one of Tyson's best wins, and was certainly a better and more dangerous fighter than a comebacking Foreman.