Prime tyson beats prime holyfield, convince me.

louis was 37 years old had been fighting forever, he only had partial use of his right arm and his reflexes were shot.
prime joe louis eats marciano

 

well I do think Holyfield slightly edges this matchup but mike makes it close with his combinations and power
I would take holyfield in a split decision

 

Tyson all day.

But what is Prime Holyfield?, yes when he fought Tyson in 1996 he was older, but he seemed bigger and stronger and much more experienced than the 1991 Holyfield?

1991 Tyson And Holyfield totally different fighters to 1996 Tyson And Holyfield.

The Tyson that Holyfield fought was a poor mans version of the 1992 pre prison Tyson, and the 1992 Tyson was a poor mans version of the Prime Tyson from 86-88.

I pick Tyson, too big, too strong and simply too good for Holyfield. Thats if were talking about 88 Tyson vs 91ish Holyfield?
Its all good going to war with Stewart, Bowe, Cooper etc but its a stupid move against Iron Mike Tyson especially Pre prison

 

You hit the nail right on the head there.

I pick Tyson all day

 

:good
what would holyfield be like without his steroids ??

 

Ruddock may argue with you there. It has been explained earlier but the 96 versions of Holyfield & Tyson are different than the 91 versions. Holyfield could still win a possibly had his number but it's highly doubtful that 91 Holyfield wrestles Tyson like 96 Holfield did. The outcome could have been the same but Tyson pre-prison still had a better chance of beating Holyfield than the 96 version had. Too bad the fight didn't happen then.

 

He still hit alot harder than Holyfield.

Tyson walked through Ruddocks punches and im afraid a pre prison Tyson would have just walked right through Holyfield. It woudl ahve been another longer version of Tyson Vs Spinks.

I dont see a pre prison Tyson having any problems with Holyfields punches, he would literally walk through him. i mean look at the way the 1996 fight ended, Holyfield was throwing everythign exceopt the kitchen sink and he couldnt move Tyson who finished the fight on his feet. He was more tired than anything.

Obviously with Tyson rotting in prison Holyfield then gained the experience with the wars he had with Bowe, Moorer etc, plus the headbutting and the steroids.....it all worked out for Holyfield in the end i guess.

Pre prison Tyson mows down, outbombs and just out****s Holyfield. Holyfield always has the stylistic advantage, but in 1991 that wouldnt have mattered. Just like Fraziers style advantage over Foremans.

And then people would come one Eastsideboxing.com and say

"Tyson never beat anyone, whose he beat? LHW Spinks, CW Holyfield and Old man Larry Holmes?"

 

I'm not convinced. I don't dismiss that experience in general is always a factor - good fighters can learn from every fight.
But there wasn't anything I'd recognize there as a "transition", apart from Holyfield becoming slower but perhaps even stronger.
The pattern is pretty much the same throughout his career.

I don't think Emanuel Steward did any teaching or correcting myself. He probably thinks he did, he has a very high opinion of himself.
I mean, the world and his brother knew that Holyfield would attempt to move a bit more in the rematch, knew that he'd be bulked up to.
The point is, it took a LOSS to make Holyfield see sense. Same thing happened in the Lewis fights - he took Lewis a bit for granted and boxed stupid in the first fight, that made him correct himself in the second.
With Tyson he got in right first time, probably largely because Tyson's style would always suit him. He didn't need to come up with anything ingenius, he just had Mike's number.

I was more impressed with Mercer's boxing development than Holy's when they fought. I think Holyfield was smart but he had to grind that win out with sheer strength and will, because Mercer surprised him by being his equal in skill and cleverness. Or something like that.

Yes, Bowe 3 might have been his stupidest fight.
Czyz he boxed bad. Moorer 2 looked for a moment like Moorer 1 in the middle, but Holyfield was fitter, stronger and Moorer was not what he'd been. Again, it was largely a sheer muscular and mental effort, no genius of strategy.
Lewis 1 - dumb fight. Etc. etc.

just my opinion, though. :good

 

Smaller. And not as strong.
Same goes for the majority of elite heavyweights since the 70s or 80s though. :good

 

Then why did he drop Duva and company and hire Steward? He obviously wanted to make a change for a reason. When fighters lose especially for the first time, they look to make a change, as if it was entirely the trainers fault.

 

I'm not sure if you started this thread so you can continue your anti-Tyson agenda or your serious about listening to an opposing argument. In the event that you are serious about listening to an opposing argument I have one for you.

Seeing as to how this fight was gonna happen before Mike Tyson went to Prison, it likely would have happened in 1991. So below are a few components that would tip the scales towards Tyson's favor.

1. Tyson's handspeed: Mike Tyson after prison did not have the same handspeed that he had before prison. He was still fast but he lacked the fluidity to put together the combinations that he was able to put together a few years prior. This can be attributed to his new muscled physique that was a result of a strength and weight training bias as opposed to roadwork that dominated his early methods. This was critical component in Tyson's success; it was the reason why Tyson's style and previous Heavyweight Champions with similar styles retired just around the age of 32 because they lose effectiveness. Remember he was being beat to the punch against Frans Botha in 1999, so he definitely was was on the decline.

I will acknowledge that Holyfield's hand-speed declined during their fight in 1996 from what it was in 1991, but Evander unlike Mike Tyson adjusted his style to compensate for his short comings. He fought in spurts, he held more; Tyson on the other hand kept trying to fight the same way he did when he was 20, but his body wouldn't react the same way. He never adjusted to age.

Bottom line: Even though both of them would have faster hands Tyson's was a bit quicker and he was better at utilizing his gifts than Holyfield was.


2. Tyson's stamina: Tyson pre-prison never had stamina issues. He had 12-15 round stamina. After prison he was tired early, he was breathing heavy earlier and as a result he lost effectiveness. There has never been a fight pre-prison in which Tyson relinquished control of the lead simply because he got tired. All of his fights from Hector Mercedes to Razor Ruddock II show that if Tyson had the lead in a fight, he never lost it nor did he blow it towards the end. Even when he lost to Douglas it was never a situation where he was doing fine or the fight was competitive until he ran out of gas. With Douglas he was out of the fight from the beginning, in fact the first round you actually could have given Tyson was probably the 6th round and that's being generous. So he was always out of the fight and as the rounds wore one and he took more and more punishment the accumulation was sufficient to get the job done. Stamina was not the big issue he was just too incoherent to retaliate effectively.

Against Holyfield the fight was competitive until the 5th or 6th round and after that the momentum was clearly Holyfield's. Evander was the fresher of the 2 after about the 6th round. In round 10, a round in which Holyfield took off (he had stamina issues himself at that point). Tyson was winning the round until the last 30 seconds but fought with little intensity during the first 2:30 of that round. In the 9th round against Douglas on the other hand he fought with far more intensity even though he lost the round. Watch both of those rounds individually, Tyson took more punishment against Douglas during the first 8 rounds than he did against Holyfield in the first 9 rounds. But his lack of stamina against Holyfield was more apparent. He was simply too fatigued to keep it competitive. Against Douglas his eye was swollen shut couldn't see some of punches coming and therefore was taking far too much punishment but he advanced forward (unsuccessfully) with more of a spirited effort.

Bottom line: Tyson's better stamina pre-prison would keep him in the fight longer, thereby increasing his competitiveness.


3. Holyfield's Experience factor: If they fought back in 1991 Holyfield would not have had the experience of fighting Riddick Bowe 3 times, Ray Mercer, Micheal Moorer, Larry Holmes, etc. Every fighter learns from experience. Those fights made a difference in Evander's success against Mike Tyson. Put it this way Mike Tyson in 1985 vs Tyson in 1987 were completely different fighters. 2 Years proved to be substantial in Tyson's development and this was attributed as a result of Tyson's experience with world class opposition. Evander Holyfield win, lose or draw would always be pushed to his limits by Mike Tyson. At that time he still wasn't mature enough or experienced enough as a fighter to have beaten Tyson. He fought smart when he needed to but he never showed the discipline to maintain that even in his rematch win over Riddick Bowe. He would occasionally stray from his game plan and Manny Stewart had to keep him back on track by emphasizing what they worked in the gym over and over. Tyson would nail him at some point and he'd show his bravado by responding in kind playing in to Tyson's hands.

Bottom line: Evander's preparation was in his experience over the years and that advantage allowed him to improve on a fundamental level. In 1991, he wouldn't have been ready for Tyson.

4. Tyson's Activity: Ring rust is the term given to fighter's who come back after a long layoff and don't look as sharp as they were before. It is not given to fighter's who have been active all along fighting the best fighters in their division. The best way to get rid of ring rust is to get a few rounds under the belt this way you get back your timing. Tyson didn't fight anyone who put up enough resistance to give him the much needed rounds. The Bruno fight has less to do with Tyson getting better and more to do with Bruno getting worse, after-all his loss to Tyson was his last fight. In 1991, both fighters would have had sufficient activity. Tyson's timing would be considerably better allowing him to counter better. In 1996, Holyfield would occasionally initiate and then counter the counter that Tyson threw. That wouldn't have been the case in 1991. Using Evander's own words: "He hadn't been hit yet...." during the pre-fight build up. When a fighter comes off a long layoff one of the things that they have to get used to getting hit again. Tommy Morrison said the same when he came off his decade long hiatus.

Bottom Line: Tyson's inactivity hurt him in their 1996 fight giving an inaccurate representation of what would have happened if they met earlier. In 1991, this issue wouldn't exist, his timing would be alot better, he'd take punches better because his body would be better conditioned to doing so.

5. The discipline factor: Both fighters were closer to their physical peak in 1991 than they were in 1996. 1991 Holyfield was more careless occasionally engaging in slugfests when he didn't need to fight that way. He frequently fought up or down to his level of competition. He epitomized the phrase "hardest way to make an easy living..." but all this was fine because in the ring he was able to make up for it because of his physical attributes. As he got older, he grew more disciplined, he fought smarter simply because his physical limitations wouldn't allow him get careless; he fought in spurts and with more tactic and as a result expended less energy in fights. Tyson on the other hand was no Joe Louis in terms of discipline but he was far more disciplined pre-prison.

Bottom line: If they fought pre-prison he would be far more disciplined in his approach to this fight. His respect for Holyfield would have prompted him to take the fight seriously. In 1996, Evander was thought to be was finished as a fighter by everyone including Mike Tyson. By the time Evander got Tyson's attention that he was very much alive and very formidable; it was too late. Tyson taking an immediate rematch with Holyfield was imprudent, simply because Tyson was never ready for a fighter of Holyfield's calibre in the first place. He needed rounds to get back to the thick of things. In 1991, Tyson respected him and would have approached the fight without the false sense of security.


So if they fought back then;

Tyson would have better hand-speed, better stamina, better timing as a result of better activity and he'd approach the fight with more discipline as a result of his respect for Holyfield. Additionally, Holyfield would not have the big fight experience that he had leading up to the Tyson fight. He'd be younger, faster and have more stamina, but so would Tyson. Mike's best asset was his youth and when that is taken into account regardless of which side of the argument you are on you have to acknowledge those reasons favor Tyson.