Prime v Prime - Norton wont trouble Ali.

No I think that Norton definitely had Ali's number stylisticaly in the first fight.

He broke Alis jaw in the first place because he found a flaw in his style to exploit. He found that he could hit him clean when he countered straight down the pipe and taged him consistently thoughout the fight.

 

Personally speaking I think Norton gives near enough any version of Ali fits. It's a styles thang. :yep

 

Alis main nemesis was not Ken Norton or even Joe Frazier it was Eddie Futch. He was the man who really had Ali's number.

The man who drew up the plans that both used to beat him!

Here is what Norton quoted him as saying.............

“Your not going to hit Ali by slipping, dropping underneath or parrying. You have to hit him while he’s punching. When he starts to jab you punch with him. Keep your right hand high. His jab will pop into the middle of your glove and then your jab will come right down the pipe.”

“If you start from the center of the ring it will only take you three steps to get Ali on the ropes. Every time you jab, step in and jab again. Then do the same thing. Don’t do like all the other guys do. Don’t throw your left hook to the head, he’ll pull back against the ropes and pepper you with counter-punches, instead start banging his body with both hands.”

And years later

“The jab was a big reason Muhammad Ali never figured out why he had so much trouble with Ken Norton in their three fights.”

 

Why was the punch that broke his jaw "lucky"?

I see lucky as things that just happen to you without any intended purpose; meeting a great woman in the video story, being born in wealthy circumstances, etc.

Norton threw that punch with the intention to hurt Ali. And it worked. How is that lucky? It's having a plan and executing it.

 

Ali was in against two in the Norton fights. Those that know the history of those fights will know what I mean.

 

Ali may have won fight 2, BUT it was still a razor edge fight that could have gone either way.

 

The point is that Norton found a flaw in Ali's style that alowed him to land on Alis jaw consistently.

Good fight plan pure and simple.

 

What if Foreman had had Futch in his corner, and we know Joe Louis had "Chapie" Blackburn in his corner who would have seen the same flaw......."somebody" could have been in serious trouble.

 

No, I don't think Foreman had the reflexes to handle Ali's handspeed.

Prime for prime, Ali has a long night of work, but he wins clearly with Norton.

Trying to time yourself with Ali's jab is VERY HARD to do IMO - you gotta be the best amongst world class fighters (as if you don't know that lol) like Joe Frazier or Ken Norton - that jab is so FAST it is tough to avoid. Easier said than done.

 

While I agree that the 2nd fight was more of an indicator of how a peak Ali would have fought, but, of course, this was a rematch, wherein Ali already knew Norton's style and figured out an effective fight plan. The first fight possibly had to exist for Ali to fight how he did in rematch. So, say, if Norton was an Ali title challenger around 1967, the surprise element of the first encounter would have featured highly, you're forgetting that when taking their meetings into account. Any Ali vs Norton would be a close 'un.

 

Foreman did not listen to his trainers in the rum up to the rumble in the jungle. They advised him to aply a more methodical approach. So it dosnt follow that he would have listened to Futch.

If Ali were to fight Joe Louis then he should shoot Jack Blackburn first because if Louis is to win then Blackburn would be the deciding factor.

 

Yep. Norton would be a tough match for Ali at any stage of his career.

Norton really hurt Ali in the first fight. I dare say if the fight had been 15 rounds, and not 12, something dramatic would have happened. Ali was tired, had a sore jaw, and was aching from body shots.

 

He was in far worse conditioning against a harder puncher who never let him off the hook (literally) in the 12th against Frazier, so i don't think Ali would've had trouble going 15. Or let me put it this way, i doubt something dramatic as a KO would've happened.