Primo Carnera vs. Gerry Cooney

Yeah I don't really understand it either me and a few other posters including yourself proved his theory of Holmes having an off night to be false. And now it's something else not to give Cooney credit ?

Seems to me some type of biased views going on here from the way it looks to not give Cooney any credit what so ever.

Overall no one is saying Cooney is anything special, but he had some skills and one of the best hooks in the business.

Yes he never beat a top 10 ranked opponent, but early stoppages over Norton, Lyle, are still solid wins even if they were past their prime. Cooney actually broke Lyle's ribs BTW, which wouldn't of made a difference what version of Lyle was in there.

And Young was never stopped again after being stopped by Cooney, and was only ever stopped twice in 57 fights. Once by Shavers when he was novice with barely any fights, and once by yeah you guessed it Cooney.

I don't understand the hype that Carnera is getting in this thread either, from what I've heard alot of his fights were fixed by the mafia. Yes he was a physical specimen especially for that era, and made the most of his size and lack of skill in a era which didn't have big Heavyweights.

But I'm sorry I think Cooney looks way more impressive on film than Carnera did.

 

Indeed it is.

After Maloney? Maybe.

There is little evidence to suggest that he improved greatly beyond Sharkey (I)

This^ is a myth perpetuated by Pro-Carnera revisionists.


The Central New Jersey Home News

STANLEY POREDA WINS DECISION OVER CARNERA
By GREG HEWLETT (Associated Press Staff Writer)
NEWARK

Wed 17 Aug. 1932

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You're missing the point. In terms of what they represent on paper there is, of course, a contrast. But there is little to distinguish them in terms of the level of performance. In fact, I would say that I observed much more of note from Cooney against Young than I did from Carnera against Sharkey.

It remains a position of much mirth to me that you imagine a sub-190lb boxer taking it to Carnera, as did Loughran, reflects well on Primo.

Cooney would have nigh on killed Loughran, as would have any decent heavyweight of Carnera's proportions.

 

The Carnera hype is a @janitor thing.

There are a few other Primo fans that occasionally rally alongside him to create this alternative view of Carnera. It is a view that typically involves an interpretation of the record, which dismisses any notion of him having had his bouts fixed for him and ignores the fact that Carnera often outweighed his opponents by 3 to 4 stone. All this, while asserting that, after a sudden surge in improvement, Carnera's prime lasted from roughly 1933 to 1935 (a period during which he had his arse handed to him in probably his worst ever outing), after which he rapidly went on the slide.

The aim, of course, is to compartmentalize a section of his career that places a focus on the better wins, on paper, and dismiss as many of his losses as possible (Naturally, they have to take a hit on the Baer debacle). This is often coupled with the (quite serious) promotion of the idea that there had been a mass-conspiracy in the press to misrepresent any performance Carnera ever gave in the ring.


The reality is that Carnera just wasn't much good. Yes, he was a colossus; very strong and tough, with a lot of stamina and heart but he lacked skills. That said, he did get a little better over time and it is generally accepted that Carnera's team got him to be a bit lighter on his feet and develop something of a jab.

However, other than these facets of mobility and a jab, no credible analysis of Carnera's improvement is ever provided by the pro-Carnera set. Moreover, despite these limited refinements, his bouts almost invariably ended up with him artlessly swinging his arms at short range, grappling and mauling. In other words, he really wasn't able to maintain any type of form during a fight and so he often reverted to manhandling his much smaller opponents.

Thus, on film, and for the most part, Carnera looks awful. There is a considerable volume of post-fight reporting on Carnera that reflects this view of him - Not to mention the available footage in which we can see the limitations for ourselves.

As you allude, Cooney was not exceptional (save for his killer left hand, which was notable and extremely dangerous) but he was a decent boxer and easily better than Carnera. Anyone would be mad to put their money on Carnera to win this matchup.

 

Jimmy Young was winning for two and a half rounds until Cooney's right inflicted a unique once in a career cut on Jimmy. In a multiple bout series, that version of Young takes it over Gerry.

Primo had four inches of reach on Gerry, MUCH more hand and foot speed, 35 more pounds in weight, and Gerry never won over a distance longer than eight rounds. Holmes decked Gerry in round two and could have taken Gerry out any time he felt like it.

Gerry was outmuscled by Holmes, Young and Michael Spinks.

It took a prime Joe Louis to stop Carnera in six, just three months before Big Red's career peak against Max Baer, and Primo was on his feet when it was called off.

Da Preem won 11 times over the ten round distance, produced an additional tenth round stoppage, took a 12 round decision over Campolo, came off the deck to go the Championship Distance in one of Jack Sharkey's finest career performances, lasted 11 rounds and actually won rounds where Max Baer did not floor him, all on an ankle so severely sprained from that first opening round KD that Carnera had to be hospitalized, then out of commission for five and a half months. Paul Gallico did not dispute the legitimacy of Primo's two successful title defenses over the Championship Distance. Gerry Cooney does not have the speed or skill to compete with Tommy Loughran, who out jabbed and outmaneuvered taller opponents than Cooney.

Up to the point in time Gene Tunney rated the three hardest single HW punches, he rated the first KD Dempsey unloaded on Willard tops, the first right Max Baer floored Carnera with second, and the right Joe Louis knocked out Jimmy Braddock with third. (Louis and referee Arthur Donovan for their part said the Bomber's hardest single shot was the right uppercut he decked Uzcudun with.)

Cooney's best shot was his hook to the body. Again, Paul Gallico stated Carnera could take these all day with no apparent ill effects, just as Jimmy Young did.

When it came to punch resistance, it's close. Holmes (who, let's face it, carried Cooney in a bid for a lucrative rematch after the second round) and Foreman dropped Gerry in two, former LHW Champion Michael Spinks did it in five after unloading some good shots. Nobody disputes that Cooney's the harder puncher but not in Max Baer's league. Perhaps fatally, Gerry's far more predictable than the 20 round high altitude desert summer Madcapper.

I see no way for Gerry to stop Primo within eight rounds of a 15 rounder. Cooney would somehow have to do this on the back foot or against the ropes. He is not avoiding the Italian's physical clutches and maulings.

Carnera improved in all his rematches, whether he won or lost, except from Campolo I (KO2) to Campolo II (UD 12). (We know the Stribling exchange was rigged.) Optically, Primo didn't mind looking up at Impelletiere, Campolo or Santa. Cooney might've been weirded out by dealing with somebody his own size or bigger.



While Gerry tended to box cleanly aside from all the low blows on Holmes, he never learned to clinch, while Primo was very rough with the backhands and wrestling that wrecked Cooney when he was unable to clinch Michael Spinks.

There's simply no contest when it comes to physical strength, stamina, experience, resume and heart. Nobody ever counted out Primo. Gerry never beat anybody in the class of King Levinski, Art Laskey, Uzcudun 2X, Sharkey or Loughran.

Gerry's toughest win was his eight round decision over Eddie "Animal" Lopez, but there was no ten round rematch Cooney desperately needed for extending himself.

Over the Championship Distance, Gerry would have been exhausted into an enervating clubdown by Primo, whose right would've been landing on Cooney's susceptible left temple. Gerry couldn't clinch. This might look like the late rounds of Antuofermo-Hagler I where vastly superior physical strength and stamina, let alone a ridiculous experience edge over Cooney, decides the outcome, either a late round stoppage on sheer fatigue or clear UD via physical superiority and punching volume for Da Preem.

As skilled as Loughran was, and for the fine road wins Tommy generated over Godoy, Jack London and Maurice Strickland after Carnera, Primo took 11 of 15 rounds over Loughran. In eight career bouts over the Championship Distance, only peak Greb (between his first two bouts with Tunney) otherwise ever beat Tommy in 15 rounds.

Had Carnera gotten up from Max Baer's first KD with two healthy legs, what happens then? That was questioned enough that a rematch was actually discussed until Maxie dropped the title to Braddock (right before Louis-Carnera - at Primo's Championship pace, Max Baer-Primo Carnera II would've been a certainty, but the HW Title went back into mothballs again - Primo was the only fighting Champion between 1923 and 1938).

 

Gerry Cooney gets that funny little derby knocked off by Primo Carnera, then Gerry picks it up, places it on his shoulder then says to Primo, Now Knock It Off.. Ha Ha

 

If the boxer confesses to a fixed fight, UNLESS there is a financial payment involved for that confession, I will usually believe that fight was fixed. If there is extraordinary evidence that a fight was fixed, I will look at the evidence and decide for myself if I think it is enough for me to believe the fight was fixed. I will also view the fight, myself, if that is possible. Yes, I believe some fights have been fixed. Examples are: Tony Galento vs. Harry Thomas, in 1938. Max Schmeling vs. Harry Thomas, in 1937. Steffen Tangstad vs. Alfredo Evangelista, in 1986. There have been more, some involving Primo Carnera, but I am not going to list them all. I believe there are also cases where boxers did not give their best effort, due to fear, looking for a last good payday without taking a beating, or just poor training and then starting to gas and looking for a place to land in the ring. There are a lot of reasons why a fighter might quit in the middle of a fight. I do not usually view those situations as outright fixes. Less than best effort appearances can have many reasons, going all the way back to the training camp, or lack thereof. I choose not to define those as outright fixes. There are many ways to quit or give less effort than possible in a fight. Those have to be arranged BEFORE the fight starts, with some sort of payment involved, before I will classify then as "fixed fights," or "dives." And I need to see extraordinary proof, also, especially in World Championship fights!

 

It's an interesting post but the Young stuff is nonsense .. he lost every round and was not outmuscling Cooney .. Holmes did not either nor Spinks ... you're post seems good enough to base your point on facts ..

 

There I must disagree.

After Carnera moved his base of operations to the USA permanently, a lot of effort was made to teach him the fundamentals of boxing.

His style changes significantly between Sharkey I and Sharkey II, and he starts to use his size much more effectively.

It is also during this period that his march on the title takes place, and he starts drooping the ranked contenders.

Joe Mangold was actually suspended by the Commissioner George Keenan for rendering what Keenen described as "an unpardonable card."

I don't see how you can possibly argue that he controversy surrounding the decision is a product of revisionism.

The controversy started after the final bell.

 

You have compared the Young that Cooney beat to the Sharkey that Carnera beat.

I think that the Sharkey that Louis beat would be a much better point of comparison.

You criticize Carnera's performance against Loughran, based on Loughran's weight, without any further context.

This is not best practice.

Whatever Loughran weighed, he was a proven killer of heavyweights, and justifiably the #2 contender.

Remember that Cooney himself also received a chance to get the lineal title, by beating a natural light heavyweight, and he ended up as roadkill.

You will of course respond that Cooney was a shell, and I probably won't disagree.

However I see nothing in Cooney's resume, to suggest that he should be a prohibitive favorite over Loughran.

 

Perhaps, one day, you can be more specific about these improvements. Using his size more effectively? You mean the grappling and mauling?

As I mentioned in my previous post, a credible analysis of Carnera's improvement is yet to be provided.

If you spent some time researching you'd find that Keenen was a tin god who suspended someone or other from their duties on an almost daily basis.

Mangold was reinstated 5 weeks later. Clearly Keenen 'pardoned' him. No further action was taken. It was a damp squib from the outset.

Mangold operated within the New Jersey rules. More specifically, rules concerning deductions for fouling and, funnily enough, rules that Keenen himself had proudly announced with clarification only months earlier.

Perhaps the more important outputs from this event are the indications that Carnera remained an artless competitor.

Firstly, I didn't state that the fight was not controversial. You stated: "by all accounts he was robbed against Poreda"

You've seen the report I posted. Carnera was clearly not robbed "by all accounts".


Secondly, you have erroneously conflated my reference to 'Carnera revisionists' with the idea I was stating that the controversy was a product of revisionism.

 

The footage should be sufficient to make the argument.

Watch the Gains and Sharkey I fight, then watch the Sharkey II and Loughran fights.

That should be all you need.

In other words the decision was very controversial at the time.

No need for Carnera revisionists in the 21st century to get involved.

I apologize, and concede that he was only robbed by some accounts.

I woudl add that Poreda is not a man to be underestimated.

He was in the mix with Carnera et al, and he is one of teh men who didn't quite make it.

 

Hmmm....intriguing reply. I expected an utterly blistering retort from you.

At the beginning of round two, Gil Clancy commented, "Y'know, Gerry Cooney may have won that first round, but Young has Cooney doing what he wants to do. Cooney is trying to figure Jimmy Young out and that's the worst thing you can do. With Young, you just have to walk in, start leading to the body and throw punches. If you try to feint with Jimmy Young and try to nail him with one punch, you'll never do it. You'll be lookin' at the end of the night...see there, Gerry Cooney is out there trying to figure him out...everything's to the head, there are three more punches to the head. It's the wrong fight for Gerry Cooney to fight. All his punches are to the head. He was in perfect position to throw the left hook to the body, but he went back to the head. There, he does it again."

Dick Stockton: "Keeping the pace he wants it to, Gil."

Clancy: "That's right.

Round three:

Stockton: "Cooney coming out with a vengeance in the third! Cooney coming out as an aggressor in round three."

Clancy: "That's what he has to do, make a war out of it, not a chess match."

Stockton: "Seeing more body punching from Young than from Cooney."

Clancy: "That's right! Jimmy's sinkin' 'em into the body and that may affect Gerry in the later rounds."

Just a moment later, the key instant takes place. Gerry's jab falls short, but a long looping right behind it splits Young's guard and tears open Jimmy's face, inside and above his right eye as Cooney finishes his combination with a left hook to the body then left uppercut to the head which splits Young's guard again and possibly opens the cut more. Then, as Gerry steps back, Jimmy dabs at that cut with his right glove.

Clancy: "He's making that amateur mistake! He's going for the head when he should be going for the body!"

Stockton: "Still going for the head is Cooney..."

Round three ends with Young digging to the body as he has Gerry pinned in his own corner, but that long right has already decided the outcome, as Jimmy returns to Eddie Futch, his face a mask of blood. Futch tries, but can't do the job as the cut reopens quickly. I was surprised Young fought through all three minutes.

During his post fight interview, Cooney is breathing rather heavily, but he saw blood, he really fired up, especially with that right to the body Victor Valle wanted him to unload.


What happens without that cut? Gerry was missing a lot of head shots, but was scoring well downstairs. He had to listen to Valle and not be outscored by Young to the body. Cooney had the height and reach to achieve this, but he had to listen to his trainer. Aggression had to prevail over ring generalship, especially if it went late or even the distance. That would have been a far better learning experience for Holmes, as his competition stamina got extended. Five rounds in 1980 and 54 seconds in 1981 just wasn't going to cut it for Holmes, then Larry exposed his temple as his weak spot. After his first two defeats, he didn't get right back on the horse, but took years off. Following his defeats, Primo got right back on that horse and trudged onward.

 

Try to stop us.

The book will come eventually!

 

Why?

In relation to what I actually posted regarding Loughran, I do not think I need provide anymore context than what it is I find amusing - which I did.

There is no best practice in what I find amusing or not.

I don't really care to judge whether Loughran was a justifiable #2 heavyweight contender. His win over an all but done and indifferent Sharkey is dubious, at best - as is his win over Impelletiere. In fact, his heavyweight run yielded mixed results with him losing and drawing almost as many bouts as he won.

It wasn't a great period for the Heavyweights.

That Spinks would have hammered Loughran, as well.

Because he was a pickled coke-head and a capitulating wreck, at this point?

Again, I am less concerned with resume when it comes to head-to-head speculations. I have seen enough of a prime (up to and including the Holmes bout) Cooney to form an opinion. I am satisfied that he was a better boxer than Carnera.

 

Poreda won fair and square and Carnera's lack of cultivation is evident at this stage.