Primo Carnera was as legitimate a champion as any there has ever been.

Never said he was a bum ... he had a huge heart and never quit ... who rates him in the top twenty ?

He was destroyed by Louis who could have put him away earlier if he wanted to and also destroyed by Baer ,,, the Loughran fight he had tremendous size advantage against a light heavy and I question the Sharkey fight ...

 

I agree with Janitor's position on Carnera.

Here is Max Schmeling, whom I would consider a very astute observer, on Carnera in his autobiography:

"His reach was much greater than that of any opponent, and the leverage that gave him enabled his punches to penetrate almost any defense. In contrast to the experts, I had always considered Carnera to be a technically sound boxer, so I wasn't surprised to hear that he had knocked out Sharkey to become the second European to win the world heavyweight title."

 

You stated , Carnera was beating top 5 contenders fairly consistantly,but your own stats show he didn't.When Carnera met Lasky,he was unranked,what he did after doesn't count.Neusel was NEVER the no 3 contender for the Heavyweight title,He was stopped with a cut and opinion was that he did not want to fight .Box rec puts italics over the word retirement. Levinsky was no 7 ,briefly when he fought Carnera.I REPEAT the highest ranking fighter Carnera beat ,apart from Sharkey, which is under a cloud,was LOUGHRAN.What other fighters did previously ,or subsequently is of NO RELEVANCE .You say Gallico is an unreliable source ,because his version og the facts is directly opposite to yours,as he was there at the time and spoke to many of the principals ,plus watched many of Carnera's fights from ringside I think I would prefer his version of events to yours.Nat Fliescher,Hype Igoe ,Grantland Rice and Paul Gallico . All called Carnera's ooponents on his way to the top a collection of set ups,of course not every fight was fixed ,but quite a few were.Carnera was better than the likes of Impelletiere ,and Campolo ,no one denies this ,over the years he develpoed into a passable boxer ,with an effective left jab and strength inside,his frailties were ,lack of a ko punch ,and the inability to take a good shot.An honest , brave man whom you persist in lauding. You called this thread As Legitimate A Champion As There Has Ever Been .I don't see how that can be when there are so many question marks over his victories,If you had called it Carnera Better Than Originally Supposed, that would have been realistic.
I think we have done this to death several times so lets retire to our corners and let the forum keep their opinions .

 

Oh well if you have a long reach you can penetrate any defence then .Like Willard couldn't do,like Liston couldnt do ,what a bunch of tosh.Carnera was a fair mechanical boxer, who lacked power and didnt take a shot too well. END OF STORY.

 

1. Why didn't Louis put him away earlier if he could? What evidence do you have for this statement? Louis was frequently quoted by Ted Carroll as speaking well of Carnera as a boxer and Carnera did in fact last longer with Louis than Baer, Levinsky, Uzcudun, or most of his other early opponents.

2. What relevance is the size advantage against Loughran? Carnera was big. That has to be considered in evaluating a heavyweight fighter. Loughran's weight (184) was not that much different than the weights of Dempsey (187), Tunney (189), Charles (182), Marciano (184), or Patterson (182), in some of their championship fights.

3. The Sharkey fight on film looks a hell of a lot less fishy to me than Liston's first fight with Patterson. I have never seen anyone produce actual proof that this fight was a fix. The film, in my judgement, does not support it. The logic is circular. Your premise is that Carnera is a bum and use that premise to critique the evidence on film. I would use the evidence on film to critique the premise.

 

Louis's comments on the Carnera fight.
" Old Chappie said there was allways a cloud over his ability,but that Carnera was the gateway to the championship."
.The fight itself."I got in some hard punches,in round one.He just moved around and flicked out a jab.The first thing that shockedCarnera and the audience was that instead of him handling me ,like a baby,I handled him.They were looking at his size ,not his talent.I moved him around easily.The fight moved along smoothly for me.I remember in the fifth round ,we clinched,and I picked him off his feet.That's when he spoke to me,the only time in the fight.He said, " Oh,Oh,Oh....". His eyes bulged out in surprise."Then he said, "."I should be doing this to you".I was just as surprised as he was with the ease with which I moved him around.Carnera had nothing.He couldn't punch,but he had a pretty decent jab.He pushed with his right,and he was awkward.Mostly he tried to scare me with his weight". "He never hurt me once". SOUNDS A REAL WAR DOESN'T IT? Taken from Joe Louis My LIfe. I will leave the Brown Bomber to have the last word.

 

This is an impressive put-down quote against Carnera. Louis does not say he could have put down Carnera earlier, though, and the fact is other top heavyweights of the time, Baer, Levinsky, Uzcudun, and Retzlaff, as well as the old Sharkey, did not do any better against Louis.
I have never seen a good overhand right from Carnera. He does club or maul with it. His left was better, though.

One thing about the positive quotes from Louis about Carnera. Carnera was alive then and Louis may just have been being gracious.

 

Schmeling said almost any defense and I consider Schmeling's opinion valuable.

 

What's questionable about Liston/Patterson I?

 

I just looked up the New York Times report on the Neusel fight. Neusel is certainly described as giving an honest effort, even rocking Carnera with an overhand right in the fourth round just before the end. This is the description of the end of the fight:

"A mighty left hook settled matters in the fourth frame. Carnera delivered the blow which landed on Neusel's right eye. The punch opened a deep, ugly gash on the German's eyebrow and he was clearly stunned.
Carnera was disinclined to hit him again and looked at Referee Arthur Donovan in the hope that the arbiter would stop the bout. Instead Donovan waved to the men to continue, whereupon Neusel raised his right hand in token of surrender and walked to his corner."

I don't know how to transfer the article but it describes a hard fought fight in which Carnera looked impressive and rocked Neusel with left hooks several times, with Neusel giving up as described when he was hurt and badly cut. Hardly seems to give much credence to this fight being a fix, and why exactly wouldn't Neusel have come to fight when a victory would obviously have reestablished him as a serious contender?

 

Nothing, except Patterson puts up a very poor effort, worse than Sharkey did against Carnera and Sharkey was several years older and on the cusp of a severe decline.

 

"didn't take a shot too well"

Perhaps not, but he was never counted out, and the only men to stop him prior to his postwar comeback with the top punchers of the day, Baer and Louis, and the by reputation heavy-handed LeRoy Haynes.
In contrast, Schmeling was blown out in one round by Gypsy Daniels and Sharkey ko'd by Romero-Rojas. I see no evidence that either Schmeling or Sharkey had a better chin than Carnera, or perhaps even one as good.

It should also be pointed out that Carnera's abrupt career decline might be tied to a collapse of his health. He suffered from diabetes and lost a kidney in Jan, 1938.