Primo Carnera's ability

Carnera was never considered a powerful puncher, not even remotely. Quite the opposite actually. He had no chance of making any such list.

 

You are half right.

I would say that he was hyped as a powerful puncher early in his career, especially during his European tour.

He was however as you say, an unexceptional puncher for a man of his size, and you could well understand somebody's reluctance to put him on such a list.

 

The point is that allegations were made against them, which is all that we have against Carnera for the most part.

Allegations.

 

He's an unexceptional puncher in the heavyweight division without any consideration given to size. A truly unexceptional one.

He was hyped as many things when they promoted him early and every effort was made to make him look even bigger and more intimidating than he was. The European part of his career was what, his first 18 fights? Some shady ones at that.

I'm not trying to bag the poor guy, i think he was world class for a time and maybe around 50-60 in the divisions history which is high praise.

 

How do you then explain his awesome ko percentage?
How do you explain that it has been disregarded by those making the list?Why do you think that would be?

 

No! We have fighters being suspended for lack of effort,purses being confiscated ,we have fighters saying they were bribed and threatened,we have cornermen rubbing capsicum pepper into eyes of opponents who became a little too ambitious[Bombo Chevalier& Roy Clark ,] we have cornermen throwing in the towel for no discernible reason and fighters swooning and falling to the ground without receiving a punch of any force. All this we have concerning Carnera we have quotes from his managers,[ Leon See saying over 30 of his fights were fixed] and Billy Duffy saying to Paul Gallico," its a pity the top scribes were ringside for his big city fights otherwise we could have got away with a lot more". You had to be here [The Salle Wagram Arena]and see the big guy cant punch or take a punch"
We have NONE of this concerning Baer or Braddock or indeed any other champion of the time.
You will no doubt dismiss all this as just hearsay as you always do when inconvenient facts are presented to you.

See had an axe to grind [yet he remained friends with Carnera] Gallico was anti boxing yet he attended countless fights including many of Carnera's whom he genuinely felt sorry for.
Carnera was disliked in the US etc,yet Schmeling presented as a representative of the Nazi regime received positive press and drew good crowds?

You Sir, along with Reznick and Choklab are in a state of denial.
Here is the write up of Carnera against second rater Di Meglio,Primo had 100 fights under his belt at this time.

1937-11-18 : Albert Di Meglio 199 lbs beat Primo Carnera 255¾ lbs by PTS in round 10 of 10

• Location: Salle Wagram, Paris, Paris, France

"Primo Carnera came back tonight, but only to Salle Wagram, the arena where he fought his first battle for a $20 purse. He lost on points to a second-rater... Those among the 3000 spectators who had seen Carnera's debut seemed to agree either he had not learned much boxing in the meantime or else he had forgoten what he had ever known about it. The only damage done in the ring was a pair of black eyes, one for Carnera and the other for the referee who received one of the giant's wild swings." (New York Times)

1929-11-18 : Young Stribling 195½ lbs lost to Primo Carnera 283 lbs by DQ in round 4 of 15

• Location: Royal Albert Hall, Kensington, London, United Kingdom

Both fighters down in the third. Carnera down from low blow in 4th. This bout was probably fixed.

Stribling did have a bad reputation in Europe for "ungentlemanly conduct".


1930-04-14 : Primo Carnera 276 lbs beat Leon Bombo Chevalier 216 lbs by TKO in round 6 of 10

• Location: Oaks Ballpark, Emeryville, California, USA
• Referee: Toby Irwin

• One of Chevalier's seconds, Bob Perry, threw in the towel, although it appeared to all that the boxer was in no worse condition than Carnera. "A bitter demonstration followed. Half a dozen fans attacked Perry, striking and kicking him. In the melee he suffered a cut under the eye. Fellow countrymen of Carnera's stood on chairs and shouted 'fake' and urged the huge Italian be made to fight over again." (AP) The boxing commission started an immediate investigation. Mrs. Chevalier told them her husband had been approached earlier to agree to a "fake fight," but that he had directed all business to his manager, Tim McGrath. McGrath declared he had no knowledge that Perry was going to throw in the towel, and that the towel should not have been thrown in. Carnera's purse was withheld.

Wire Service Report April 15, 1930:[1]

The following is courtesy of the April 2010 Boxing Bulletin Web page: [2]

• "Those sitting in Chevalier�s corner claim that Perry, the second, wanted to throw the towel in as early as the second round when Chevalier was out-boxing the giant but was deterred by a fan who threatened to shoot him if he stopped the fight. But in the sixth, when the self appointed guardian of the second was yelling for the Negro to win the fight, Perry fired the towel over the ropes. When the irate fan realized what had happened he started a two fisted attack on Perry and gave him a beating." � Bob Shand, Oakland Tribune
• Chevalier had taken a "9" count after being shoved to the canvas in the sixth round, but had gone on the attack after rising and was looking more comfortable than Carnera when Perry made his move. The fighter�s manager Tim McGrath was working as chief second and told the press that Perry, who had been hired just that day, had no authority to act in such a manner. After the bout, it was reported that earlier in the day Perry and Bob Laga, also hired that day to work as a second for Chevalier, had been a guest of Carnera�s west coast manager Frank Churchill, at the Whitecomb hotel in San Francisco. Strangely, Churchill seated himself in Chevalier�s corner for the bout, explaining afterward that he could not find a chair by Carnera�s corner.
• Chevalier was cleared by the commission of any wrong doing and declared "an innocent victim of the entire situation."

 

Since you seem reluctant to hazard an opinion as to why Carnera isn't in the HOF or the 100 best punchers list.

May I make the following suggestions?
As to the quality of his opposition versus his stats.
21 of his opponents had more than 20 losses on their sheets.
Two of his opponents were debutees,pemissible when you yourself are a novice ,but not when you have 99 &100 fights under your belt.
Five had more than 20 ko losses.
When trawling his record ,you are also struck by the very low percentage of ko's his victims manage to acquire on their records.

In conclusion Carnera was fed the biggest collection of setups , dive artists, and just plain execrable fighters we have yet seen enter the ring.
I feel this is the reason he is neither in the HOF or the 100 Best Punchers list.
Can you offer a more reasonable explanation?

 

This is nonsense, there were super heavies before Carnera ,and ,during his career probably the most ever competing until modern times eg----
Impelletiere
Hansen
Redmond
Clark
Erickson
Rioux
Campolo
Harris
Santa

 

That's a great post!

It really puts it into perspective; that, no matter how much one wants to big up the individual win, here and there, for Carnera, his record engenders a mass of distrust. Even what could be considered his best win is wrapped in controversy; "

This content is protected

" [The Miami News (Miami, Florida) 25 Aug 1933, Fri Page 18]

 

Muhammad Ali had an awesome percentage too. A lot of guys quit on Ali, He stopped a lot of fighters. You don’t need awesome power to record inside the distance wins.

 

In the case against Carnera here are three true points that legitimise his worth that I have heard no sensible argument against.

Firstly, as champion Primo beats uzcudun who in his very next fight drew with Max Schmeling.

Secondly as ex champion (and after Joe Louis massacred him) Primo recovered to easily beat a world rated contender inside the limit.

Thirdly he crushed Campolo easily, a man who then beat Arturo Godoy over 12 rounds. After beating Godoy Campolo fights ex champ Carnera a second time and is defeated into retirement from boxing.

Yes, like Sonny Liston, Carnera was controlled by the mob. There are a lot of stories going around, lots of comedy. However, these three points above would need to be explained away -and they can’t.

 

Who are you referring to, here? After Louis hammered him, Carnera beat 'never was' Neusel, in 4, with his elbow.

 

Neusel was not a “never was” during that period and his record bares this out. Walter did not need to be a world beater, just decent world class, and he was. Beating a guy like that after the moment “legend has it” that The mob stopped fixing Primos fights should put doubt on that notion. The Campolo result seals it. Campolo beat Arturo Godoy over 12 rounds. Then we have the part where Primo beat a guy who draws with the first man to knock out Max Schmeling...

There is a lot more evidence that Primo was legit once he hit World level.

 

The point I was getting at, is that post-Louis Carnera did not beat Campolo in two-rounds. This fight occurred years earlier, which lends itself to my next point.

You still don't seem to understand how you've managed to reduced Carnera's case down to handful of splintered micro-moments, all of which have as much negativity surrounding them, as they do the gloss you are so fond of painting onto them. Against the weight of information, which demonstrates, beyond reasonable doubt, how poor Carnera was, these micro moments mean very little in the scheme of things.

You simply have no perspective and draw grand conclusions from messy little scraps of evidence, here and there, which if presented in a certain way, bring a glimmer of hope to an alternative view. But it is a dim glimmer and nowhere near enough to outshine the obvious.