Primo "The Ambling Alp" Carnera v Roy "Superman" Jones, Jr

Well I think that it's easy to look back and judge them on the standards of today, but you have to remember, close to 100 years ago when Tunney was a young man, things were totally different. And even those who may have held very liberal views in that era may be looked at as far right wing today.

And even today, we see that most people just go along with whatever the prevailing social norms are

 

To be honest with you, the perceived class should be in Carnera's favor, unless we are talking about a pound for pound sense.

We are comparing a lineal champion, with a very deep resume against the best contenders of the era, to a man who literally had one fight north of 175lbs!

We are often told by yourself and others, that size is a decisive factor when matching fighters from different eras.

This is essentially the crux of your argument.

Yet here we are matching a super heavyweight who was a lineal champion, against a former middleweight, and you pick the former middleweight because he is a modern fighter!

Is it any shock to you that people like myself mistrust your core argument, when you are willing to cast it aside so casually, when it works against a modern fighter?

What would you be thinking if you were in my position?

 

Primo might land 10 jabs the entire fight... Likely not much else.

I'm also not convinced Primo would even beat Ruiz.

 

I am sorry but this is nonsense.

Loughran was a great fighter, but he was never a particularly gracious loser.

He told everybody who would listen before the fight, that he was going to defeat Carnera easily.

The fight was never particularly competitive, and Carnera was just too big for Loughran.

I would add that Loughran was much more proven at heavyweight than Jones ever was!

 

Yes, the problem is that they might be the only ten punches that anybody landed!

You don't have to be.

Ruiz is a much easier style for a smaller heavyweight to overcome, than Carnera is .

 

Great comment ^. That is what makes analyzing "boxing lore" from various viewpoints fun.

 

Well considering that he did beat Loughran, that might give me some hope for Primo against RJJ. But if Carnera did win, it would be because his sheer size bailed him out.

Plus, he did have that KO win over Sharkey and the uppercut looked real enough to me. If he caught RJJ with it, I'd expect similar results.

 

A guy with the size and style of Jones, has to play an absolute blinder to beat a guy the size of Carnera, at world level!

That is one of the few things, that modernists don't have to pull teeth, to get the supporters of old timers to acknowledge!

The tragic irony is, that we actually apply their argument more consistently across eras, than they do!

 

http://idnc.library.illinois.edu/cgi-bin/illinois?a=d&d=DIL19340302.2.129&txq=loughran+carnera

I appears to have been more competitive for the first ten, but Primo battered him for the last 5

 

Well I don't think anyone is claiming Primo is better P4P

 

What did you think of Super Mario Odyssey? Great game.

 

Roy gets flattened. Roy doesn't have the power to keep Primo from running over him, since even at 175 Roy had very limited power. Primo beat plenty of guys more experienced and just as fast and more skilled than Jones. Primo isn't John Ruiz. Ruiz made his name by beating shot fighters and even struggled to do that. Ruiz has a loss and a draw against a shot Holyfield that just a year later was toyed with by Byrd and James Toney.

Jack Sharkey, Larry Gaines, and Young Stribling were just as fast as Jones, but could actually punch and Primo managed to beat them.

 

Roy could possibly outbox Primo, but Primo could also punch a bit & I can see him dropping Roy with a jab or an uppercut. Loughran had pretty good jaw and fought heavyweights more than once. Primo could flatten him.

 

Have you taken notice in the last two years how lowly Carnera is considered? Another thing you are overlooking is that many in here do not think much of many of Carnera's contemporaries either. Many don't overly rate Max Baer. Stating that Carnera won the lineal title and beat some contenders does not for many carry over as well as beating contenders in other era's for many.

Heck, some will consider Ruiz a better fighter than Carnera. Michael Moorer was lineal for heavens sake.

It is only the crux of my argument if i think it matters in a particular match up. I have continually stated i believe the jump from 180/185 to 210 or more to be huge when matching similar class fighters. I have also continually said i believe there is diminishing returns north of a certain weight power wise. There can also be diminishing returns ability wise for the vast majority north of certain weights as well.

Where have i picked Jones? I pick Jones because he is a modern fighter? Do you see me picking Jones over Joe Louis? Jones is after all a modern fighter and Louis isn't.

For the record the talent gap between Jones and Carnera could barely be bigger and i don't hate on Carnera. I've said recently i believe he was world class in his own era.

The core argument for those picking Jones will be that they believe Carnera isn't much of a fighter. They might also believe Jones to be stylistically suited here and quite a talent as well. Size isn't much if people believe you are shyte and have a good look at the recent Carnera threads as to how he is perceived around here.

Do you think people mistrust your continual arguments of resume being the be all and end all when matching fighters from era's of 60+ years apart? Let me spell it out - a great many in here don't care if a guy from say 1940 beat more top 10 fighters than fighter X from 1995 or whatever or was lineal when X wasn't.

A fair way from what you actually are as hopefully seen. You always play like a defense lawyer when it comes to old timers fighter more modern fighters. You build your case completely and utterly around trying to convey they have the best possible chance.

Don't take any of this the wrong way Jan, i think you are a fantastic poster and the forum is extremely lucky to have you. You are an absolute gentleman and don't base your debates around dishonesty or running down fighters. I think it's great someone gives older era's full thrift as everything needs balance and you are an important part of it. I seldom oppose your comments unless i think you have gone way out of balance. I think your initial comment i responded to missed the mark by a long long way.