Problems I had with Frazier vs Foreman I

Liston was black balled because of his back to back losses that many people thought were quit jobs or fixes. He was fighting European level guys and wasn't in a position to demand a fight, unless I'm missing something.

Lyle and Foster lost to Quarry. Quarry got destroyed by Frazier. It's kind of strange to accuse him of ducking them.

Garcia was beaten by Norton. Norton and Frazier did not want to fight each other and were friends.

As for Durham nearly "slipping up" matching Frazier against Bonavena, this is also a strange criticism as he not only beat Bonavena, he rematched him. He rematched Foreman too when he was far past his best and didn't really need to (Foreman was no longer champion). It's a myth that Frazier avoided punchers, he literally rematched the two guys who dropped him. He beat the guys who beat the other big punchers of the era. Do you think Frazier would just throw the belt in the garbage like Bowe if Lyle or Foster managed to beat Quarry and became mandatory challengers?

 

The referee for that fight was seasoned veteran Arthur Mercante Sr, who refereed Muhammad Ali vs Joe Frazier I on March 8 1971 and Floyd Patterson vs Ingemar Johansson on June 20 1960.

 

True, Joe Frazier was decked twice in the same round by Oscar Ringo Bonavena on Sept 21 1966, but emerged victorious by split decision. And defeated Oscar by 15 round decision on Dec 10 1968. Joe was dropped 6 times by George Foreman on Jan 22 1973, and stopped in two rounds, but fought Foreman again on June 15 1976, and was stopped.

 

Liston was top ten ring ranked for three of the years ETM specified. Lyle & Foster were top ten ranked before they faced Quarry, Frazier had ample opportunity to fight them,he did not.
Garcia was beaten by Norton , 5 years after he had ko'd Norton which was when he was ranked.Plenty of friends have faced each other in the ring.
.Frazier was matched tough with Bonavena he scraped by, he was a better fighter the second time around which was over 2 years later!.
I don't think its a myth that Durham avoided punchers on Joe's behalf. Frazier rematched Foreman for the North American title,which George was defending, if he had won he would have been right back in contention ,plus he got a million bucks for the fight.

Beating guys who beat other dangerous men means jack ****.Foreman used Frazier as a yo yo.Frazier gave Ali hell in their 1st and 3rd fights. Ali stopped Foreman.Foreman massacred Norton,Kenny gave Ali 3 extremely tough fights.
Ali toyed with Quarry twice ,but had all he wanted from Shavers, Jerry bombed Shavers out, breaking his jaw in the process

Boxing does not work they way you are implying and you know very well it doesn't.
Bottom line Frazier avoided all the top twenty contenders for 2 years and defended against two ham and eggers.
Bottom line Frazier faced ONE top level puncher and got bounced around like a beach ball.
Frazier was a great fighter and a fine man but he, DID NOT CLEAN OUT THE DIVISION!
I named you as one of my favourite posters,don't make me revise that pick!lol

 

As I said Liston was black balled and management for many fighters wanted nothing to do with him. The funny thing is Frazier was actually in talks with Listons camp for a fight. So no he was not "avoiding" Liston. Frazier was a green rookie when Liston was champ, Ali beat Liston twice and Liston's poor sportsmanship, rumors of taking a dive, and back to back losses meant many people did not want to promote him. And then Frazier STILL tried to fight him but then Liston died. I don't get how you're holding that against him.

Lyle and Foster got beat up by guys Frazier beat. Once again, do you honestly think if they beat Quarry and became the #1 contender that Frazier would dump his belt?

Was Garcia ever ranked #1? Did he ever demand a title shot and was shot down? Norton was his best win by far and he hadn't done much. You are not obligated to beat literally every person in the top 10.

As for Norton and Frazier being friends, do you have this same criticism for Wladmir and Vitali refusing to fight?

So your criticizing Frazier for rematching the man who floored him twice because it was "2 years later...?" You're not happy unless someone does an immediate rematch? So by your logic Ali was "ducking" Henry Cooper for not rematching him immediately!

Yes Frazier rematched Foreman. Wasn't Foreman a FAR more dangerous opponent than Foster or Lyle (who Foreman knocked out)...? So rematching the man who knocked you out, a devastating puncher in his prime, doesn't count because he was paid "millions of dollars"...? It would have been better for him to face the man Foreman already beat for even less money...??? Is this what you are saying?

It means a lot when You're accusing someone of ducking. Patterson lost to Ellis and Frazier beat Ellis. So did Frazier duck Patterson too?

This would mean literally every boxer in history was a ducker!

 

Durham actually said he would not match Joe with Sonny.Where is your proof to the contrary?
Frazier was not a green kid in1969 when Liston was number 6 ,nor in1970 whenListon was number 8.Lyle and Foster subsequently got beat by Quarry ,but nobody knew that would happen,in1970 when Foster was number 5 nor 71 when he was again number 5.
If you want to justify Frazier not meeting them because they would later be beaten by Quarry then justify his defending against Stander and Daniels whom just about everybody beat!
I'm not criticizing Frazier for fighting Bonavena 2 year later and you know very well I'm not,I'm pointing out he was a much improved fighter 2 years on . You are being deliberately disingenuous, if I didn't respect you I would call it something else that begins with dis---.
Now you're trying to pull the oldest con in the book shifting the narrative and attempting to put words in my mouth.I never said , suggested or otherwise implied ,a rematch must be immediate ,so drop that ****.
Frazier, if he wanted to stay relevant in the heavyweight rankings,had no choice but to take on one of the "iron of the division ",Lyle was just as much of a threat to Frazier as Foreman was, a big man and a huge puncher, but with George the risk was balanced by a potentially greater reward if he was successful.George's NABF title and replacing him as the number one contender,which would potentially fast track him into another title shot.Likewise I mentioned Frazier's purse because where else was he likely to earn that kind of reward?
Wlad and Klitchko are brothers ,how many brothers have faced each other in the pro ranks? More disingenouness.

Your recent debate with Unforgiven was far more convincing than the one you are currently putting forth here.

 

From what I read Frazier wanted it but his management did not.

And Liston was literally banned from boxing in some states like NY I believe. At no point was he Frazier's mandatory, Liston was in Europe feasting on nobodies for easy pay days for years while Frazier was beating the ranked contenders.

 

So you have no primary source for your statement.
Liston was black balled by Durham because he was too much risk for too little reward.
Liston was in Sweden koing guys who would beat the two patsies Frazier defended his title against! Guys like Zech,Johnson,Lincoln Rush,Clark, Rischer ,no longer ranked contenders but hardly nobodies, and I'd back them to beat Stander& Daniels . BTW Liston was only in Sweden for 9 months.
Tell me when Ramos,Ziggy ,Stander, Bob Foster,Daniels ,were Frazier's mandatories! LOL
His number 1 contender for 2 years was Ali.

 

Is Joe the only champion that has done that? If your looking at this reign strictly from a lineal point of view then yea his reign was disappointing. In reality Frazier had been at top of the division from about '68 on. Taking over the heavyweight division when Ali was suspended. His legacy was solid even before beating Ali in 1971.

 

You have to appreciate a fella who sticks up for his favorite fighter.

 

Your laying all this on Yank Durham? He had Frazier. Did he also manage Jimmy Ellis? Quarry? Bonevana? etc. Not sure Sonny even wanted to fight Frazier? If he did want to fight him Im sure he came to his senses after taking a nap in front of Leon's Martin.
Liston's name at that time (post) Lewiston was MUD. That's why he went to Sweeden. This was back when the heavyweight title was held in higher esteem. If Durham kept Sonny away from his fighter that would be understandable. Yank knew when to put his chips on the table and when to hold. If Frazier had knocked out Liston in 1968 or 69 would it be a feather in his cap? I doubt it.

Joe Frazier would have fought Liston or anyone they put in front of him. As he went on to prove as late as 1976 when he squared of with George Foreman without a tuneup.

Ziggy, Daniels, Ramos, (Stander was ranked) Bob Foster a great lightheavyweight champion challenging for the heavyweight title. You failed to mention that Frazier took on Oscar Bonevena in his 12th professional fight. Eddie Machen and George Chuvalo about 15 fights into his career. The same Chuvalo who was good enough to challenge Ali for the championship a year or so before.
Between those soft touches Joe Frazier did some heavy lifting, giving Bonevena a return match and beating him again. Beating undefeated Buster Mathis for the New York Crown. Then beats Jerry Quarry, the runner up in the tournament, going on to destroy Jimmy Ellis the WBA heavyweight champion. Then cements his already impressive legacy by beating Ali in a legendary fight.

A few years later Ali avoided another match with Ken Norton after their bout in Yankee Stadium about 2 years. Ali went so far as to accept challenge for a novice Leon Spinks who had 7 pro fights. And he lost. Cheapened his reign.

That isn't the part of Ali's career that made him a great champion. If Frazier's legacy is judged strictly on Terry Daniels and Ron Stander that would be a little twisted.