Problems I had with Frazier vs Foreman I

I totally understand, but the point of the thread seems to be, that Foreman cheated us of the "real" fight and what it would look like because of the pushing. So in that sense, my analogy works a lot better. If you know a fighter cuts easily, and you throw punches that encourage cuts, he gets cut and the fight is stopped. One could certainly say that we were robbed of what the fight would've looked like and the chance the other guy had going in.

 

I think the rationale was give Ali a miss and take on George before he improves.

 

Your efforts to take any and all credit away from the likes of Foreman and Liston is embarrassing.

 

Yes indeed. It backfired didn’t it.

 

Not at all. Foreman was as much a great Fighter in his own right every bit as much as any other great fighter. Liston too. Both were incredible.

Why would you find it embarrassing to point out forgotten hard facts? If Frazier won a title from a champion previously rumoured to retire after an earlier title defence (and had been taking things very lightly since then) I would not get sore about it if you pointed it out. Why would I?

It would only be embarrassing if I were making stuff up but that is simply not the case.

There's an account of it here:


https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=nYxLAAAAIBAJ&sjid=DiQNAAAAIBAJ&pg=7142,3126706

 

Frazier earned the right to be called a great fighter and a great champion when he won FOTC.Then he pissed on those hard-won laurels by defending against two unranked journeymen, avoiding ranked contenders for 2 years.

 

Absolutely. By then Frazier had indeed cleaned out the division because he had beaten all of the meaningful elite fighters of that period. Quarry, Bonavena, Ellis, Chuvalo and Ali.

Well yes, Frazier did fight two softer selections that is true but the top ten was full of guys he beat or Ali had beat. I agree there was no need to go outside the top ten. Ali booked most of the best contenders in 1972.


Champion :Frazier

1. Muhammad Ali
2. Jerry Quarry
3. George Foreman
4. Oscar Bonavena
5. Mac Foster
6. Jimmy Ellis
7. Floyd Patterson
8. Jose Luis Garcia
9. Jack Bodell
10. Joe Bugner

 

Like the old saying goes if you don't have your health you don't have anything. Joe's health was in question for awhile after FOTC.

 

Yes Ali took them on, but that doesn't let Frazier off the hook for avoiding them for 2 years. he hadn't defended against
Lyle
Bugner
Patterson
Garcia
Foster
Bugner
So he hadn't," cleaned out the division"
Ali did, Frazier did not.

 

That is no consolation for the ten challengers who waited for 2 years for any glimpse of a title shot.
If you aren't capable/prepared to defend your title against a top ten ranked challenger in a 2 year period ,relinquish it!

 

I don’t think Lyle warented a shot in 1972. He sounds like a big name now but in 1971-72 he had not made a splash yet. Lyle was going the distance with Manuel Ramos who could not last two full rounds with Frazier 14 defeats earlier. By the time Lyle beat anybody worth talking about Frazier had already signed to meet Foreman who was ranked a lot higher.

Bugner was losing to jack Bodel.

Patterson was better than Daniels but losing to Ali.

Same with Mac Foster.

Garcia was no higher regarded than Ron Stander anyway. Garcia Beating Ken Norton in 1970 meant nothing because nobody knew who Norton was until kenny beat Ali which happened after Foreman beat Frazier.

So it is difficult to pin point exactly what Frazier was supposed to do. He could have rematched guys he already beat but he needed time to get over that beating he took beating Ali.

 

I think maybe Frazier should have. But others could have too. With hindsight Frazier was already financially secure, he had fell an awful long way prime wise and was unlikely to improve on his resume and get out of boxing healthy. So yes, Maybe he should have got out while the going was good.

If we are not going to hold things against Ali for not rematching Young, Norton or Foreman whilst making fights with Coopman, Dunn, Evangalista and Spinks as champion then I am not sure we can complain too much about Frazier.

 

He is supposed to defend against top ten challengers and for 2 years he refused to do so.

 

I agree in an ideal world.

if Frazier fought José Luis Garcia in place of Ron Stander you would be okay with that?

How many top ten contenders did Dempsey fight between Firpo and Tunney?

 

Ali was 35 when he defended against Young.Frazier was 28 for the Stander and Daniels fights.Significant difference.