Promoter Sunny Jim Coffroth Explains Why No Johnson v Black Challengers InThe US

Well first thing I have to say is it's god damn amazing to me I can't see images until I hit reply. Dunno why, but that really surprised the **** out of me.


Anyway, I admitted I'm relatively ignorant specifically because I'm unsure of Johnson's behaviour during his actual reign. I can't speak to it because, and I'm not knocking anyone or Jack with this, Jack is relatively easy research compared to most black champions during the colorline era and I wanted to get the harder to find stuff done before I tackled Jack. That said, there's a reason I didn't drop a single name but Frank Childs. My pre-jack research is at about the mid-late 1800s on into the early 1900s in terms of career lengths. I'm very close to Jack's reign now and at about the time in Jack's life where he's still learning and leaning on people. It comes up from time to time. JJ stayed with X. Or JJ worked with Y. That sort of thing. That's not to way I'm completely ignorant on his later years it's just that I'm documentary/internet article level educated on him and have yet to read a book on him.

So what I'm saying is I lack the knowledge to agree or disagree with most of what you had to say. I've heard it said before that Sam and Jack were not friends and I've no reason to believe you're wrong but it's still you telling me something where you have exclusive knowledge.

That said, what I know of between Jack and Frank could be told as if they were not friends as long as I omit when they were. I'm not saying I'm suspicious of you lying to me or anything juvenile like that, I just mean to say I may have a different take from the same source if I had said source myself.


Finally to what I really want to get at, I think you missed my point. No one claimed all black men get along or should. Or that Johnson was in debt to his race. An example of Jack's peers who don't like Jack isn't much of a reason for him to abandon the same community that made him, fed him when he was hungry, made him strong when he was feeling weak, and put coin in his pocket when it had none. I don't mean black people, though maybe that's true I don't know enough to make that claim. I mean the black boxing community in America. The specific men who helped him, and the specific men who paid for it after he retired.

Perhaps when authors focus outside of Jack Johnson they try to paint the subject of their focus in a better light. Perhaps I've simply been reading the bitter ramblings of old men, but let me tell you at least the story of Jack and Frank in the short form.

Frank has just become colored HW champ after his second fight with Armstrong. Jack shows up at his door looking for work, saying he's hungry, has no place to stay, and talking about how they're both black texans and should stick together. Frank doesn't really have the money to pay Jack given Jack doesn't bring any press at the time, 1890s I think, but takes Jack in, give Jack sparring work, and feeds him. Jack overstayed his welcome and did end up being kicked out in the rain one night when Frank's family came to visit and Jack still hadn't found a new place to stay.

Admittedly, I don't know Jack's side of the story except for some vague excerpts about Frank being cheap, greedy, and cruel.

My instincts tell me a bit of both men's side are true, Frank probably was cheap, he was broke. He probably did reserve the best of his for himself, and when he'd had enough of a person he was a dick. Jack seems to be a selfish man who thinks only of his own situation. I don't mean to say that as in Jack does it on purpose. Everyone, well every black boxer in america at the time, had to overcome quite a lot. I've read of no one who didn't yet. So I assume Jack's lack of empathy is mostly a defense mechanism and also a source of drive.

Funny thing about Godfrey, I read a whole chapter on him recently and not a single mention of johnson. Maybe it's there and I just didn't take it in, but there was quite a bit on Dempsey and Carnera.

Jack Johnson did use the boxing community. Then he did nothing for them and actually limited their potential. George Godfrey would never get a serious title shot because of Jack Johnson. Maybe he didn't intend on it, but he certainly did nothing to prevent it either. The one thing he could have done was fight the colored champ and he didn't. Maybe if he had The Shadow would have been more than just Dempsey's gatekeeper.

Based off what you told me the only thing Johnson had to lose was some money. He could have defended against McVea who I have in my notes as colored champ in '09 and '11 or The Black Panther in '14 or even '16 had he chosen to bar fat slow white fighters who are doing mediocre so that they can make one poor defense and get back to barring black men. If he didn't like Sam or Joe he didn't need to do them any favors. Wills was damn good by then. Surely if Langford is a name worth mentioning against Johnson on skills Wills is too.

Here's the honest truth, based on my research Wills, Langford, and Joe are better than Willard. Godfrey, Gains, and Obie were better than Max, Sharkey, and Primo. Dempsey and Tunney are really the only white champions between Johnson and Louis I respect. Sure, they held the colorline but they were honestly good fighters who I'd favor against their black peers in a h2h, but the rest of them, Baer included, I don't think they were the best men at HW at that time. They were the best whites sure, but not the best. Without a colorline I don't think they would have been champion and while that's not solely Johnson's doing he did nothing to prevent it.

 

I don't know, but I'm jealous all the same. I've not been to Cuba yet, only just family comes from Cuba. I'm not Cuban I'm Puerto Rican but, ya know, soy hispano, I got cousins just about everywhere.

It wouldn't be hard for me to accept Frank was actually a massive dick. Bros before hoes that leave and show up one night in a winter's rain I always say.

I assume had Jack Johnson treated white boxers as equals as opposed to pay checks, and if his loss to Willard is legitimate, I've heard it claimed fixed, and again I am ignorant and bouncing these idea off you because you're less so not so much for to argue, then I am presently of the belief that JJ should have told Jess Willard he's not good enough to challenge for the title and fought Harry. Because it was the truth. While Willard is getting mixed results against lesser competition Harry is getting mixed results from the best that era has to provide in the US. Maybe it's just post Johnson hype, but a guy fighting Langford, McVae, and Joe, and not losing more often than not is a spot ahead of a guy who just lost to McMahon and best wins are some of the most forgettable in boxing then like a diamond you see Johnson there on his resume. Johnson's name is too high to appear on that resume, but on Wills does it really stand out as a wtf happened or does it fit right in?

Anyone want to go to bat for Jess Willard being able to beat Sam, Joe, other Sam, or Harry? I'm not even sure I'd back Jess against Big Bill. Panther beat all of them multiple times.

I think proof of that is in their reigns as champs. Jess barely got a defense out, Wills went on to best all the best in his stable dropping and gaining the title like any other era does with decent competition. Jess shouldn't have ever been champion. Dempsey vs Wills should have happened, Johnson was in position to see to it that it does.

So why didn't that happen? Or at least an attempt? He had to know innocent ment would pay for his brash and determined assault against white establishment especially by the end there. Why give in to the whites and fight their chosen fighter given he's a bit **** compared to others active at the time? Bad for boxing, bad for the community that raised him up, and bad for Jack's own legacy. I bet a loss to Wills would be less suspicious than a big ol plodder that never gave anyone with any talent any trouble. I understand people being suspicious of the Jess loss, it's damn suspicious on the surface of things.

Don't get me wrong I'm not claiming Jack caused this, clearly that blame lies with the racists, but I know of no attempt to end it or control it in anyway other than to increase his own pocket size, which to me is selfish.

 

Speaking of Gunboat Smith I watched the silent film Wings the other night he has a role in it as a drill instructor teaching cadets how to fight. Thought it was interesting since their is not much footage of him. Unfortunately his scene is used mostly for comedic purposes.

 

I dropped off because of Wilder, I am a bit of one of those **** fans that has fun trolling and being trolled sometimes. I do try, if that bleeds in here, to keep it seperate.

I will, I know I need them Pollack books, but I feel like if I get them before I've finished with characters like Childs, Wills, Godfrey etc it'll distract me. Like I said, Jack's one of my heroes. Forced the whole world to accept him as him, which is damn cool and damn intoxicating. I apologize if it was a bother to explain.

Would it have been dangerous for him to say no to Willard? Also, did Jack think he would win or was he fully aware he's likely to drop his title? I suppose it asking a bit much to sacrifice all that you've worked for on a hope, with no solid evidence, that you've done some good for those who may or may not have come to walk in your footsteps. Even if Jack was selfish, that's probably a bit much to ask of any man.

 

A good post. Joe Jeannette said, " When Jack became champion he drew the color line against this own people."

No heavyweight champion avoided more using the color line than Johnson did, avoiding the three best black challengers out there while champion ) Jeannette, Langford and McVey ), including pulling out of a signed contract to defend against Sam Langford in the UK.

If not the USA, why not France, the UK, or Australia?

 

Yeah, why?! Why no reason? Think about it, Jack Johnson did not want the fight. Instead he pulls out of them ( Langford 1909 ), goes back on his word, etc...

As the champion, Johnson could say where and when vs Langford, McVey or Jeannette, he never did follow through with it. That's all. Why you can't accept these fact sis beyond me.