Question about Frazier's intense dislike of Ali

It always takes two to tango, but a lot of black people didn't understand why Ali was calling someone an ugly gorilla for looking like a black African man. I have heard famous figures talk about it.

He also called Floyd Patterson a white man's ******, said any number of nasty things about white people, and collectively insulted all of the people of Japan and caused the Inoki fiasco by going to Japan and saying that they didn't have anyone in the entire country to fight him.

I am not really judging Ali, but I am definitely pointing out that his legacy has been sanitized. Good any evil exist in everyone, and Ali was by no means a saint.

 

Joe Frazier was a simple honest blue collar guy....he fought honestly and gave an honest effort...he was self made and was humiliated by Ali.....Ali was very attack prone especially when selling a fight....he was also an activist at heart Frazier was not and I always felt it was this difference between them that bothered Ali. Myself the type of trash talk Ali did was the eras equivelant to Conor McGregor in the UFC in which he crossed the lines of decency to a level that should be unacceptable to fans with decency but his charisma made him untouchable. Frazier was never like Ali in any way idealistically nor socially he believed respect was earned from honest efforts not talk. Frazier believed his blue collar performances in the ring is what sold fights....he asked for no mercy and gave none....that is the appeal of Frazier to me ii he represented America not race or religion he was unapologetically American. Frazier was a very serious man he meant what he said and said what he meant the public act of Ali was not something he understood because it wasn't something that was part of his character

 

During Ali's 3 year "banishment", Frazier befriended Ali...and even lent Ali money at times. There are TV tapes and New York newspaper articles of them clowning around at times in NYC together in the late 60's, before Ali's formal comeback. Both fighters knew their FOTC would have to happen sometime....but Ali took the "promo" to the wrong level.

 

Frazier didn`t look African, black Americans don`t look African because they have white blood via **** during slave days.

 

Frazier came from the south but moved to Phillie and was more of a street guy than Ali who came from a middleclass family.

Frazier was a generous guy who helped Ali with money when he was out of action later before their fight Ali turned the Phillie street guy into the white hope.

Black fans looked at Frazier like he was the KKK in the meantime it was Frazier who was the street guy. Joe took this as a betrayel and he became a household name from the Ali fight.

Joe was humble but had a lot of friends on the street. It was more than rumered that Frazier and big time mobster and ex fighter John DeGilio were partners in a shylock business (loan Sharking) and took shares in pro fighters together (Razor Ruddock being one of them) This ended when DeGilio was found dead with his head cut off (later blamed on Mob Boss ex fighter Vincent"chin" Gigante

Frazier remained friends with a few street guys but kept his arms distance after that but Joe had a good rep as a stand up guy

With Ali he thought Ali went overboard with names "Gorilla" "Ugly" and white. Frazier felt Ali broke the code

 

It's true what's said about Muhammad going over the top when it came to name calling with Joe. Ali admitted this quite frequently after both men retired. It's natural that Frazier would be pissed off about it for a while but he should have moved on after a few years.


I often think that Joe's feelings about Muhammad changed according to what mood he was in on a particular day. Sometimes it would be "Clay was a rotten scambooga" type of thing but on other occasions he was all "Hey.....Ali (Not Clay) is an ok guy. Those days have long gone and it's time to put things together".

An apt conclusion would be than if the rest of Joe's life was ok than Ali was ok and vice versa.

 

Read Ghosts of Manila should clear things up for you. Frazier was a good man Ali wasnt. Simple as that in my book.

 

Certainly not one to believe I can speak on anyone's behalf, but my impression is that it boils down to the intent, not the action - Ali was taunting and contemptuous with his remarks; not just to get under Frazier's skin and make him more angry and careless when they fought, but with the bullying tendency of guys in love with the image of themselves above others. It was just mean for the sake of being mean.

Frazier - while certainly no saint - if he referred to Ali as Clay, I took it as more a reflection of "Hey, that's what his name was when we first met, that's what I know him by." I don't think the idea of any kind of psychological warfare existed in Frazier's bag of strategies - he'd meet you in the ring, stand in front of you, and may the better man win. He was a prideful man, and that pride ran deep, and it took years for him to move past the was he was treated. If he managed to call Ali by his new name later on, I took it as a sign that he had moved on.

 

A lot of the older fighters that knew Ali as Cassius Clay on principle were never going to call him Muhammad Ali. Joe Louis, Marciano, Patterson, Frazier, Terrell, etc. all liked Ali and thought he was a great fighter, but they referred to him by the name they knew him by. The only old timer I remember referring to him as Ali was Moore, who also like Ali a lot.

Also, as far as Frazier he started to see Ali as a hypocrite for professing the Nation of Islam mantra while Ali had mostly white friends and a lot of white dollars helped him become a rich man. To make matters worse Frazier loaned Ali money and according to Frazier even by 2006 Ali never paid him the money back, but Marvis to a point convinced Joe to let it go.

In an old time magazine Frazier gave an interview, which I think was right before the Thrilla in Manila fight and Frazier emphasized how grateful he was for anybody paying to see him regardless of what their race was and that he seen Ali as ungrateful.

 

A significant contributor to Joe Frazier’s anger was the fact that his kids felt the repercussions of Muhammad Ali’s attacks. It’s a different ballgame for parents when their child is tormented.
As previously mentioned being referred to as an uncle Tom by someone who had a relatively easy upbringing when Frazier was forced to leave his family home due racial tensions and his refusal to back down understandably rankled Frazier.

 

Excellent post. Very deep honest man, cannon fodder verbally for the likes of Ali really with that kind of personality. He's one of my favourites to have ever laced them up.

 

Yeah, a prideful man that was hurt. I remember Frazier in an interview saying his kids at school were getting taunted by other kids, repeating what Ali was calling him(Gorilla, and ugly)and his kids would come home crying. I think if you have pride, you'd hate Ali for that !

 

I think Ghosts of Manila needs to be taken with a massive handful of salt.

I admit that Ali treated Frazier badly but the book is hardly an impartial analysis of the Ali Frazier story.

It felt at times that it was ghost written by Frazier himself.