Question about Frazier's intense dislike of Ali

I really believe Ali liked Frazier and he said so several times.

I think he saw Frazier as an easy target for his jokes which were mind games intended to gain an advantage in the ring and were not the result of any dislike on Ali's part.

I also think Ali was scared of Frazier out of the ring which is why he never confronted him in the same way he did with Terrell and he never made an issue of Frazier calling him Clay.

I think a lot of Frazier's resentment towards Ali was that he saw Manila as an opportunity to punish Ali but instead he lost.

Can you imagine how frustrating that must have been?

If Frazier had beaten Ali then I think he would have seen it as having settled the score and he wouldn't have hated and resented Ali for the rest of his life.

 

Frazier was a blue color guy. Ali's calling Frazier an uncle Tom, and Gorilla were very derogatory and hurtful. Ali actually shot a gun at Frazier hotel window location. For Frazier the 3rd fight was business, for Ali, a chance to have other women away from his wife, and partly business.

Ali took it too far, Frazier had to take it. Joe was not a verbal man, nor was he interested in calling other people names. So he called him Clay. Ali never changed his last name, it was always Clay. A bit odd.

 

Yea well I strongly disagree with everything you wrote. I stick by what I wrote. Written by Mark Kramm former SI writer

 

That's fine. I'm not asking you to change your opinion, nor will I be changing mine.

But I don't see how Kram being a former writer for Sports Illustrated adds any weight to either of our arguments.

 

For one thing he had a hell ov alot more access than you or I didnt he. Or will you take that with a grain of salt too.

 

I'm not disputing he had access to both fighters but the book reads likes an attempted character assassination of Ali by an author with an agenda.

Frazier barely gets a look-in.

 

Did it ever occur to you hes just telling the truth about Ali? Alot of people have read many similar reports about Ali including myself that are in this book

 

Good post..

 

And for what's it's worth I'm a Villa fan !

 

I've never read anything as intensely damning about Ali as Ghosts of Manila and that includes articles and books written by sportswriters with just as much access to Ali as Kram had.

 

Ok then believe what u want. Why are u bothering me about it? I told u I didnt agree with u 3 or 4 posts ago. Take your rose colored glasses off and do your research. I'm done talking about this with u

 

Some great posts on this...many right on the money...
Ali was full of cr*p at times. He said whatever suited the moment . Frazier didn't have the wit to keep pace with his talk.
Both great fighters in an age we will never see again. Sadly generations are growing by now that will never know nor appreciate them or the poilitics and context of their time.Thats what happens with the passing of time.
We don't know how age affected Ali and his thoughts , due to his illness preventing him expressing himself. We know Frazier seemed quite bitter.
We all yearn for our lost youth as we age.
These 2 were never gonna fly so high again once boxing was over and I think Frazier in particular seemed to me to be eaten up with bitterness. He didn't need to be but he was. The day they met as prime or thereabouts and unbeaten..he won . At that moment he was the man, but Ali still got the publicity , even at the moment of Joe's Zenith.
Frazier was never gonna scale those heights again , yet even at his best , Ali seemed to get the limelight. I guess that's what ate Joe up. Ali was an amazing man, Joe probably more genuine I guess.

 

Oh, I'm sorry.

I was under the impression this was a message board where people can express their opinions.

This has got nothing to do with either of us needing to do more research (we're talking about the same book) and everything to do with you having a hard time accepting it when people disagree with you.

 

Fantastic post. Well said.

 

I think it was like an older brother picking on the younger brother who he knows is sensitive and an easy target but goes after them anyway. Ali liked frazier and constantly praised him with statements like "i brought out the best in my opponents and he brought out the best in me" which is a HUGE compliment if you think about it for a minute.

Ali was a promoter first and foremost. He tried to convince Chuck Wepner that calling him the N word waa a good idea because it would sell tickets! Wepner refused but later engaged in some trash talk realizing Ali may be on to something. Norton and Holmes were appalled by Alis foul mouth and insults in and out the ring, but they were able to laugh it off as they were confident guys who knew what he was up to and had been around him for years. Neither of them took it to heart or held a grudge.

Frazier was just built different and Ali realized his mistake too late. You can tell he regretted how not only frazier but his family felt and joe admits in his book ali apologized to marvis but felt it wasnt good enough as he wouldnt come say it in person to joe and waited years to say anything.

Joe admits he wasnt always faithful with his girlfriends and the mother of his kids but says that at least he was honest about it but ali would always be sneaky and manipulative. It was a matter of principal for frazier and he felt like ali was a walking contradiction and didnt live up to his own principals.

I get where joe is coming from, but at the end of the day he was a grown ass man and should have gotten over it. Sometimes you just arent gonna find closure or the apology you're seeking and i think if anyone showed pettyness and pride it was joe. Joe liked to brand himself as a classy guy and a down to earth honest competitor, but Joe hated giving his opponents credit and often spoke ill of them or had contempt for them. For some reason this gets overlooked but it came straight out the horse's mouth and everyone focused on what a big bully and meanie Ali was.