Question about Frazier's intense dislike of Ali

I dont believe that at all. Hyping the fine is good but that was totally personal. Weak excuse to let Ali off the hook. That is the kind of stuff we've been fed about Ali.

 

What you see was what you got with Joe. He was stubborn and could be surely at times but 100$ genuine.

Ali was a good man IMO but with Joe he was just wrong.

 

I meant he could have beaten ali in their 3rd match but the better man won. If frazier won, he would have been vindicated and ali would be left with no title and his foot in his mouth having to acknowledge frazier was the better man.

because he fought fire with fire. He RE acted instead of calming down. He went back and forth instead of having an actual conversation. That would have thrown Ali off.

Anyone? That im not too sure of, i wasnt alive at the time but im pretty sure someone could have at least helped instead of just looking like a bullied little brother all the tim.

Many, but not all. Some people, even celebrities, know how to take L's or bow out gracefully unlike frazier.

Shavers became alis friend. Norton said he was glad he even got in the ring with ali because he was so poor he shared a single hot dog with his son. He saw a shrink and learned to laugh off alis insults and thats how he gained the confidence to win the first fight. Norton and ali later were on good speaking terms and ali visited him in the hospital. Holmes and ali were sparring buddies and remained friends even after their tragic fight. Foreman went through something similar to frazier and HATED ali and wanted to kill him but later used his faith to move past that dark period and he and ali had cheerful phone conversations a year after the jimmy young fight. Notice the fighters i mentioned all either beat ali or gave him hellacious beatings in memorable fights?

Seems like frazier just had sensitivity and grudge issues.

Which was his choice. He could have just focused on the fight but he allowed it to become personal and attacked alis integrity, faith, and motivations. You cant do that and then get mad when you get burned back.

Reminds me of this guy at my old job, we would make racist jokes toward each other all the time. I said something about his ex wife not knowing she passed and he was rightfully upset, but if youre gonna make jokes about my skin color and then laugh all bets are off. I thought it was fair game.

Well, part of that is true. He gave ali a good fight, he was tough, and he was duped by ali by letting his emotions control him.

I dont blame frazier for being patriotic because a black man thinking for himself and being woke was still a relatively new concept, but he wouldnt even entertain the idea when so many other activists and athletes were getting behind the big movements at the time. If frazier disagreed, he could have kept it to himself but he went out of his way to bladt ali and didnt consider any of his talking points.

Not really on Ali to repair fraziers image when the guy is saying he deserves parkinsons and wont give him credit for winning the other fights.

Youre right, frazier was neither provileged nor a collaborator. Ali was lashing out for being called clay and probably felt like frazier should have been supportive or at least understanding of his newfound interest in his roots. Those accusations from ali made the least sense and were knee jerk reactions.

I wasnt suggesting i would best ali in a verbal exchange. But im far less emotional and reactionary than frazier. I can move past things.

As i said, frazier could have moved on with his life to expand those dimensions. He had other talents like singing, acting in commercials, he had tons of kids and a famous gym hardcore fans loved. Why spend so much time angry about something from decades ago?

Sometimes it seemed like people focused on those questions to be honest, knowing frazier would get riled up. Other times he did bring it up himself.

 

I don't think it would've made a difference, although it might make Frazier feel a little better. Ali's reputation was already made by the third fight.

Mad Men Season 8: The Frazier Assignment

Yeah, but it's not common when your life's work and public identity have been painted into a corner like that, for the rest of your life.

The closest parallel is Foreman. And fair point -- Foreman did move on. But he also had a literal religious experience to help him do it.

Yeah. I guess the main differences between that example and Frazier are: (1) you realized you'd accidentally moved beyond your usual banter and took a step back, and (2) the other guy wasn't remembered by the general public for the rest of his life as "that guy who told rude jokes and was too sensitive about his ex-wife". And constantly asked to give interviews to reporters about how he lost his verbal sparring with Glass City Cobra.

It's not Ali's responsibility to repair Frazier's reputation, no.

However, it is Frazier's prerogative to resent Ali for harming Frazier's reputation in the first place.

 

He was promoting the fight, but used regrettable angles.
Not sure how any of that is wrong.

He carried no bitterness after the fights.

 

I agree with the majority here, & not much with the excellent posters Reznik & Glass City Cobra.

Yes it would have been much better & more mature to forgive Ali.
But while Ali was great in many ways, he was deeply flawed & irrational in some ways.
From the surreal speaking at a KKK rally in favor of segregation, to the (late as 1975) Playboy interview where he preached racial hatred, separation, & even murder (including for his own people) if there was racial or (his own faith) religious mixing.

He did NOT have no bitterness-if he did, he would have followed Joe'es very reasonable directive to his son to apologize in person.
When did he actually do this anyway?

Frazier was very kind & generous to lend Ali money when he was near broke & in exile from boxing-& intervened at the highest levels to get him back his boxing license.
What Ali did to Frazier, personal humiliation & destroying his public image & lying about him being the "mo blacker" man, was a Betrayal of the First Order.

You do that to a man, you apologize just as publicly like a Man.
And if you are not psychologically strong enough to live up to your word & admit you lost the FOTC & crawl across the ring on your hands & knees confessing who was the Greatest as you said you would...

At least you should effectively do this in begging forgiveness from the man you were so Hateful towards.
Hurting him & his family.
Exploiting ugly racial stereotypes when you were supposed to be about racial pride.
I have Ali as the GOAT & love much about him.
But he had some massive moral lapses too.

Ali was at best delusional that his vicious & racist comments were only about P.R. for the fights!

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Frazier went back & forth about his attitude to Ali. But remember he was a drinker, I would say an alcoholic for years.
I have a friend who was 9-2 as an amateur boxer & made an impromptu motorcycle pilgrimage to visit Frazier in his last few years.
Joe was great & indulged him at length. But my pal said it seemed Frazier literally believed he won all 3 fights.
He gave the man signed boxing gloves.
But not long after when Luciano left...He camer running out to give him...Signed boxing gloves.

Frazier was not all there towards the end of his life.
While it would have been best for Frazier to forgive WITHOUT Ali taking real public & private responsibility...
Ali was deeply wrong & there is no proportionality of fault between the two.
Ali WAS cruel & caused Frazier mucho tangible harm.

They both praised each other as boxers & for toughness.
Ali betrayed a good friend who bailed him out & went to bat for him even with Nixon...

In a really ugly, socially & personally damaging & malicious way.

 

A blue color guy? I wouldn't have called him Uncle Tom. I'd have called him Papa Smurf!

 

What Ali said about Frazier in the build up to all their fights but especially Manila was well over the top, disgraceful stuff but Joe's own brother was quoted in Mark Kram's book as believing that Joe's thirst for revenge and inability to forgive Ali was to Joe's own detriment.

I know one thing, they broke the mold when they made Ali n Frazier. There will never be a rivalry to equal it as far as two heavyweight greats willing to basically leave everything in the ring in the quest for overall dominance. Joe truly hated Ali by the time they entered the ring in Manila.

Cheers All.

 

It just does not sit well with me that some are making Frazier out to be slow Witted or that the insults that were heaped upon him were acceptable or OK.

Just because Ali is charismatic of personality and publicly articulate does not mean he was more intelligent or that his words are justifiable because he was only hyping a fight...and it was nothing personal.

Frazier was embarrassed verbally in regards to looks, race, pride etc. . Just because he does not join in the verbal sparring does not justify the results.

 

I get the impression that Frazier hated Ali more later in life than in he did when they were both fighting.

A very good point was made that Ali had lived rent-free in Frazier's head for years and I believe that if you are constantly thinking about someone you hate then you're just going to end up hating them even more.

 

In retrospect, and I love Ali, Frazier's children being belittled was Ali's fault and he should be ashamed of that.

 

Being that both were womanizers, I wonder if a conflict over a woman fueled the fire.