Question to those who rank Dempsey high

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by ChrisPontius, Nov 29, 2007.


  1. ChrisPontius

    ChrisPontius March 8th, 1971 Full Member

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    I think we can agree that Dempsey's beaten title opponents aren't very impressive. Willard was 37, overweight, inactive for nearly 3 years and has very little boxing skill which is clear on film. Miske was sick and nearing the end of his career, though he had already beaten him. Gibbons was a lightheavyweight, had a padded record, losses to a middleweight, lost nearly every time he stepped up. Firpo was a wild swinger who had no clue how to box but nearly knocked Dempsey out in an exciting slugfest. Sharkey was Dempsey's best opponent thusfar, and it was noticeable because he outboxed Dempsey handily and stunned him, untill he got fouled and went down in the hope to get a DQ win, something very common those days. Carpentier was a washed up lightheavy who shook up Dempsey. Brennan was good but he lost plenty to Miske, Greb (middleweight) and most of his wins, again, come against nobodies. He shook up Dempsey.


    Now. Most of the people who rank him in the top5 say "But Dempseys best work came before winning the title!".

    Here's an article in the Washington Post, after Dempsey beat Fulton:

    "It took Jack Dempsey, until a few months ago an unheard of boxer, only 23 seconds this evening to take his place at the top of the pugilistic ladder as the man most likely to gain the heavy weight championship of the world. He achieved this by knocking out Fred Fulton in the first round of their scheduled eight-round battle here with a right to the jaw. Fulton, looked on as the most formidable rival of Jess Willard, was relegated to the pugilistic scrapheap by the punch."

    Notice it says "untill a few months ago an unheard of boxer". This was only a year before he fought Willard! So if all this great work came before winning the title, why was he still unheard of?



    I have been accused several times of historic revisionism the last days on my criticism of Dempsey. But i think it's the other way around. It appears that Dempsey was unheard of merely a year before fighting for the title. He destroyes Willard in exciting fashion, and all of a sudden his normally reported first round knockout loss to Flynn must have been a fix, Fulton was outstanding etc (despite being knocked out 6 times in 8 years, even Moorer, Patterson or Williams got knocked out less often). All of a sudden Dempsey was unable to fight Wills because of the color line. What's left out is that Carpentier had no trouble fighting Jeanette and Jeanette even received the decision. What's left out is that Dempsey was booed and "gave boxing a black eye" (a quote from a newspaper report) when he walked out off the ring when he saw Jeanette, a colored fighter, in it. Apparantly the public had no trouble at all with watching it or they wouldn't have called it a "shame".




    As Dempsey became popular, incredibly popular, his myth grew to unprecedented proportions, but a lot of facts about his mediocre opposition, controversial wins against Firpo and Sharkey, etc, seem to be lost today.
     
  2. mr. magoo

    mr. magoo VIP Member Full Member

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    Excellent work Chris. It should also be noted that most of Dempsey's 25 first round KO's came against men who either never fought in a pro fight, or had losing records.
     
  3. dmt

    dmt Hardest hitting hw ever Full Member

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    I already said Gibbons had something like 10 fights vs hall of famers in 106 fights, hardly padded. And no he did not lose when he stepped up. he was 2-2 vs Greb according to newspaper decisions, and beat Carpeinter and Miske. Hardly padded when u have 10 fights vs hall of famers.

    But anyway Dempsey has been criticised alot over the past few weeks and here we go again :-(
     
  4. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    Please tell me that you dont actualy think that a man from the 20s with a 0-0-0 record on boxrec is fighting his pro debut.

    In this period sombody could get to the level of comonwealth champion without having a recorded fight on boxrec. If you dont know this you are not ready to contribut to this thread yet.
     
  5. dmt

    dmt Hardest hitting hw ever Full Member

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    " Carpentier was a washed up lightheavy who shook up Dempsey. "

    So? He was a Euro chamo after all. Not a great heavy but still a decent defense. Carpeinter was just one year older then Dempsey, how was he washed up? And how come u don't mention that Conn, a much lighter hitter then Carpeinter shook and staggered Louis several times for example? Didn't Bob Foster shook Ali? Dempsey was never in danger of losing that fight.

    You fail to mention that Dempsey was completely washed up vs Sharkey given his age, period of incactivity and that he wasn't the same anymore. Sharkey hit him low plenty too, so he did the same thing. Big deal
     
  6. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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  7. mr. magoo

    mr. magoo VIP Member Full Member

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    Believe me, I'm well aware of the fact that early fighter's records are not always accurate due to questionable documentation of the period. The problem is, we can't automatically credit fighters as having more bouts without any solid evidence. We can only go by whats available. Here are the reasons:

    A. We don't know how many fights a man actually had.

    B. We don't know for sure IF he even had more bouts.

    C. We don't know who they were against, or if these invisible opponents were even registered professionals, perhaps explaining why they weren't recorded.

    D. We don't know the true outcome. And I speculate that there may have been a reason why some fights don't appear on certain records.

    That being said, why don't you tell me exactly how many fights some of these tomatoes had, and against who, along with the outcomes?
     
  8. dmt

    dmt Hardest hitting hw ever Full Member

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    mr maggo,

    nobody says these 25 first round ko's came vs all time greats
     
  9. mr. magoo

    mr. magoo VIP Member Full Member

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    Agreed, but it is commonly mentioned that one of his legacies is the all time claim to having the most heavyweight first round KO's. Everytime, I mention George Foreman having the highest win/KO percentage of any lineal champion, Janitor is the first to point out that his recorded is littered with tomato cans. I'm only returning the favor, and frankly I feel my argument is just as valid.
     
  10. mr. magoo

    mr. magoo VIP Member Full Member

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    I think we can agree that Dempsey basically beat ****.
     
  11. Maxmomer

    Maxmomer Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Ok, now you're just being a ****. Did Dempsey **** your great grandmother or something? How much time do you devote to doing everything you can to try to destroy Dempsey's reputation and status on internet forums? It's getting old, every argument you come up with will be contered, and it will just keep going on and on and no one will ever win so what's the ****ing point? I rate Dempsey at 3, many other smart people who know their boxing as good or better than you rate him in their top 5. Again I ask, what's the point? I could spend an hour fact checking and coming up arguments against yours but it won't matter because you just won't let it the **** go. I'm done with this, I consider Dempsey one of the greatest fighters of all time and that's that, so **** off.
     
  12. ChrisPontius

    ChrisPontius March 8th, 1971 Full Member

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    Unless you can find me a commonwealth champion with no recorded fights before that, i find this hard to believe.

    I mean let's face it, plenty of Dempsey's and Fulton's opponents had records like 5-10-0, 10-3-0, etc. So clearly, even obscure, unknown fighters do have known records. Yet potential commonwealth champions are all 0-0? Sorry but this is speculation at best. The guys were bums.

    I will go even further and say that with all film of him he looks horrible. His defense is wide open and his balance is ****. BUT he proved his ability by easily destroying Frazier, who had beaten Ali, and Norton (dito). Willard did not do such thing. He got the living **** beat out of him by a 37 year old Johnson and would've lost a shutout decision under normal rules.

    But he had fought him twice before. Safe choice of opponent, especially considering his illness.

     
  13. ChrisPontius

    ChrisPontius March 8th, 1971 Full Member

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    I wouldn't go that far, i just don't think he's top5 material unless you rank on historic impact.

    Nope, Dempsey drew the color line against my grandmother, who was still green at that point.
     
  14. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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  15. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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