Rank Liston,Bowe and Frazier on skill alone

When talking about “skills” I think we have to evaluate it on a few things. If they weren’t the bigger, stronger more powerful guy would there skills serve them? Frazier can answer this question he was not Ali’s bodily equal- much shorter, much weaker in the clinches, slower ect, ect but his skills are what conquered Ali no godly gifts but an iron clad will and thousands of hours in the gym.

 

Yes, i knew you were talkin' about Ali from the start, the thing is i don't believe he was the only opponent who managed to neutralize Liston's physical advantages.
Cleveland Williams was bigger, taller (looked really HUGE in the first fight against Liston IMO).
Was according to eddie machen, faster, tougher, more dangerous and a harder puncher.
But with Liston's greater skills (and better chin) he slayed the beast in a very short, but exciting slugfest.
"The year 1959 was a banner one for Liston: after knocking out contender Mike DeJohn in six rounds he faced Cleveland Williams, a fast-handed fighter who was billed as the hardest-hitting heavyweight in the world against whom he showed durability, power and skill, nullifying Williams' best work before stopping him in the third round. This victory is regarded by some as Liston's most impressive performance".

 

Joe Frazier had underrated skill, Liston was the best all round, Bowe? well a distant third

 

Correct it's a baseless cliché repeated ad nauseam, by uneducated people who think Ali was the only person he fought who was his own size. I'm a bit lazy right now, so I'll just copy and paste one of my previous posts while debating with someone equally as ignorant.

 

Regardless of how you feel about his durability, and overall abilities that doesn't detract from Yarn's post that Williams was Liston's equal physically. Williams was the same weight as Liston (2 pounds lighter if we're being technical), visually towered over him, and was visibly more muscled, and stronger as seen with him backing Liston up and shoving him with ease.

 

Valdes was also Liston's size.

 

1. Liston
2. Bowe
3. Frazier

Frazier is too "one-dimensional" and limited IMO

 

Completely agree about Liston, he's then most well rounded boxer.
But Bowe is second.
And Frazier actually is a one trick pony, but he was forced to become one by circumstances.

 

Williams stood no chance in the first place. Relying on his skills was no requirement to beating Williams he was able to apply his strength and power just fine and blow Williams out in 2? Against Ali the guy who matched him physically with actual skill made the gulf very apparent Cleveland looked like all his other victims expect he could punch a bit.

 

There's good reason so many knowlegeable boxing writers still place Liston in the top 10 to top 15 ATGs, despite his relatively short stay at the top. He had amazing tools, and was far from a one-trick pony.

 

So in other words, Liston's skills only failed him when he faced probably the most skilled heavyweight of all time while he himself was past his prime, and injured.

Your statement "Listons skills failed him when he was matched with his physical equal" simply isn't true because as I've established above, Liston faced numerous men much bigger than himself and wiped the floor with them.

 

Yes, I mentioned him in post #39, along with Dejohn. The claim that Liston never beat anyone of note his own size or bigger, is a frequently debunked myth that just won't go away.

 

I did have Frazier at #2 JT

 

The only time he fought a fighter on his level he was dominated Williams, Machen and Folly are not special in the grand scheme and were not on his level so they aren’t exactly a measuring stick for his ability. He fought who was put In front of him and it made him look good. It’s not a fault of his. How well documented are his injuries? I hear it a lot I haven’t seen anything personally. not being snarky but do you have any links?

 

When did Bowe fight a figher his size and his level? As far as I know, it never happened