Rank these guys in terms of ability... HOPKINS, DLH, LOPEZ, MARQUEZ ?

And like Whitaker I'm being robbed!

 

Hopkins
De La Hoya
Marquez
Lopez

 

It was an inside joke between me and Scientist that goes back years to our lenghthy debates about Chavez-Whitaker......
As you can see, I put a wink next to my statement reflecting it as friendly ribbing.

I often disagree with Scientist, but certainly respect his knowleadge of the sport.

 

Dont underestimate your work....you're clearly landing cleaner, harder, and more effectively!

 

I'll disagree with you that Marquez would be doing the impossible.
Certainly Mayweather should be favored, but I certainly would'nt view it as an upset of epic proportions.

There is the unknown of Marquez fighting as a welter, but certainly at least from my view, Marquez has both the skillset and just as importantly the mindset to win.

 

Ok point taken.

Mayweather-Castillo could easily be regarded 1-1 and Mayweather has a few advantages on Marquez in terms of speed, defense and size.

About Diaz's size not being an issue, Diaz did not effectively use it imo. Getting in close and flurrying is something smaller guys usually do to bigger guys. I think he fought that fight like a small guy facing a bigger guy, even though he was the bigger guy. Not that I think he could have done a better job or anything. I think he is quite limited in his ways.

To the head? Yeah. To the body? Nah. Overall? Probably, but not by much. I think Castillo has the 'heavier' hands, but when Pac winds up with one it moves at such velocity that it creates great power.

Who do you actually think would win between Marquez and Castillo?

Well, I think you just generally view the opponents he's beaten and the way he's beaten them in a far more positive light than I do, and hence our disagreement.

If Mayweather shows the same type of form he did against say Hatton, I will be shocked, utterly shocked if Marquez wins. If he's slowed down a bit of is ring rusty, then I think Marquez has a chance.

If I perceive Mayweather is as good as he was against Hatton and Marquez STILL beats him, I will wear a JMM avatar for the rest of my days at ESB :good

 

Yup. Though I thought their second fight, though a clear win, was still relatively close, and the way Mayweather fought it suggested he wanted nothing to do with Castillo in the exchanges. Seeing their first fight, you can understand why. I like to think Castillo is going to find it a lot easier to track Marquez down too.

Diaz was just ill-equipped to do anything bar flurry and hope to outwork Marquez. Once his punches lost some of their sting, he was a sitting duck. I didn't think he imposed his size much at all. We'll just have to disaggree on this one.

Well, Castillo was only ever a shot fighter above 135, so for sure they would never say that of Castillo. At 135, I think Castillo goes close to matching him. Another dead end for us here.

I'd agree with you there.

I'd welcome a Marquez win in spite of all the negative things I say about him. I much prefer him to Mayweather. However I simply don't rate him as highly as most. That said, I dont really rate Mayweather as high as most either as I'm sure you are aware. I do think at his best though that Floyd is clearly superior.

 

LMAO Scientist........

The way you word it Scientist......if Marquez happens to clearly beat Mayweather, he'll get no respect from you....

One of the scenarios where Marquez can beat Mayweather, involves Marquez digging the body, and as Mayweather likes to shoulder roll at the ropes.....Marquez may be the fighter who can very well find the angles to land with the way he throws his uppercuts......
Marquez shoots those uppercuts in various stances and degrees that no other fighter in the game today does......
You however Scientist are bracing yourself to call a Marquez uppercut display as Mayweather having slipped .
"He's not the same fighter who fought Hatton".....as if Hatton was some all-time great!atsch


Mayweather's workrate over the last several years has been poor......are you going to say that Mayweather has slipped and is past his prime if Marquez plum outworks him and easily takes a wide decision???


The best welterweight is going to win this matchup period!!

 

I've never considered Juan Manuel Marquez a particularly good body puncher. His movement never seemed as fluid as say Marco Antonio Barrera, who was the best body puncher of the three Mexicans. I don't think Marquez can win this fight on the front foot. Somehow, he needs to draw mistakes from Floyd, and bring him on the end of counter shots. That way he has a chance because he a fantastic two-fisted fighter himself.

Ricky Hatton, despite all of his shortcomings, was notable for his liver shots and that was rendered completely void during his fight with Floyd. I can't explain the technicality's of what happened, but somehow Floyd's lateral movement or defensive capabilities seemed to dispell any liver shots.

If Marquez wins this fight, it would be an upset of epic proportions in my view.

 

Vlade, I don't give a fight winner unlimited praise no matter what the circumstances are. Anyone that doesn't take account of the fighters' conditions at the time of the fight is not giving an accurate description of events.

If Mayweather has slipped from where he was, it would be false of me to say Marquez beat a prime Mayweather and give him all the praise as if he did. And vice versa if Marquez looks an utter dud at 147 and looks old to boot, whilst Mayweather still has something left, why would I go and make the world out of Mayweather's performance? I'll assess things AS they happen. Not beforehand.

As to their match up, I simply see it hard for Marquez to win for the following reasons:

- Marquez is easily hittable whilst Mayweather is hard to hit
- Mayweather is quicker off the draw and will hug after every pot shot (which he'll get off first) not allowing Marquez to counter in combination
- Floyd as we know is willing to stink the joint out to get a win. If he chooses to fight backing up and moving away, it will be hard for JMM to accomplish anything becuase he has looked average on more than one occasion when forced to lead
- Whilst Mayweather has a low workrate these days, it's hard to be busy against him when he is out to dodge everything and avoid exchanges
- Floyd is great at ducking left hooks to the body, which is why Hatton didn't really have much success with it
- I don't think Marquez would have the power to knock PBF out so if it goes to a points decision it's hard to see Marquez win
- Marquez's footwork now is shaky, he easily becomes off balanced and I expect that he will plod more at welterweight, making him an easier target to hit and outmaneuver

 

Describe to me a scenario where you would give Marquez his props......what would have to happen in the fight?

You're underrating the nuances to his defense, but I can see where you would as you like safety first fighters.

Who's to say that clinching will work vs Marquez?
I heard and I expected Casamayor to bring out his bag of nasty tricks against Marquez, but everytime he got close enough to do so, Marquez was right there waiting for him, angling and then uppercuting.
I'm not comparing Casa and Mayweather, but my point is that JMM made Casa's nasty bag of tricks null and void, and his sidestepping and repertoire of of punches is the reason why this happened.

This fight wont be fought in indonesia.....Its in Mayweather's home city, but my hunch is that the crowd at the fight will be chanting MEXICO, the crowd will be in favor of JMM, so Mayweather running avoiding exchanges may be a mistake for Mayweather to win over the judges.
Mayweather is a smart guy, my hunch is that he wont run, but will box, which is alot more than I can say for that guy from Indonesia.
.....and btw, I thought Marquez looked pretty good against MAB....he initiated most of the exchanges in that fight, and it turned out his blueprint in winning that fight was starting and finishing the exchanges.
When Mayweather counters, look for Marquez to recounter.....this is going to be something new to Mayweather as he's never faced anyone with even the capabiltiy to do that to any fighter, much less to himself.

You certainly cant compare any fighters punching repertoire that Mayweather has faced to that of JMM, certainly not Ricky Hatton's who's main weapon is the left hook to the body, but not a whole lot other than that to offer.......for as great as Hatton's left hook to the body may be, great fighters like Mayweather have an easy time keying in just looking for that hook to take away from him.
You're lieing to yourself or just have'nt seen much of JMM if you dont believe that offensively, his shot repertoire is as good as Mayweather has ever faced.

The shot to the body took away Juan Diaz' energy.....I'm certain if Diaz just had the hook to the body to deal with, he would have been salivating and would have had more sucess......unfortunately for him, hard accurate shots reigned from all different angles and with both fists.
JMM is not Ricky Hatton, If you'd put a number rating on skill, Hatton would be no higher than a 4, and Marquez can be argued would be a 10 in comparison.
JMM has the tools to land other than hooks, his repertoire is varied which is going to keep Mayweather busy and occupied.....certainly not like that Hatton fight where Mayweather just keyed in to take Hatton's hook away.

[/quote]

When has Mayweather ever been hit consistently clean during a fight. Its not out of the realm of possibility that Mayweather may experience real leather landing on him consistently for the first time in his career.
Who's to say he'll be able to resist that.
Castillo had some sucess, but most of it was to the body and Mayweather likely braced for the shots.
As I said, Marquez throws from varying degrees and with both hands.
At some point Mayweather may taste some shots he is'nt accurately gauging, and those are the one's that put a fighter on shaky legs.
A JMM KO, is probably not probable, but certainly imo its possible.


Scientist, where do you get that JMM's footwork is shaky. He's been down a few times in his career, but imo that has alot to do with the fact that his mindset is to get himself in a position to land his punches off the counter.
Fight fans like to equate counterpunchers with boxing cuties....pure boxers who are there to hit and not be hit.
Marquez is more in the mold of Evander Holyfield, counterpunchers who get inside the eye of the storm and though they take some shots, have alot of the subtle defensive movements to minimize the effects of punches coming there way.


I know this is at a weight that favor Mayweather, but mark my words here Scientist, JMM has only been truly hurt once his entire career in the 2nd Pac fight......he has been knocked down a few times, but only truly hurt once.

Alot of people are overrating Marquez' toughness, and not factoring it in this matchup equation of Marquez vs Mayweather.


I know I went a bit long, but what the heck!