Rank your top 5 purely on H2H

Oh sorry, I missed head to head, I just put my top five out there. I guess head to head and ATG are linked though.

sometimes, I think Lennox Lewis deserves to make head to head, but I lived right through his era, from beginning to end. Saw each fight as it happened, and just didn’t feel I was witnessing pure greatness for much of it. His prowess as a great fighter is almost seen only hindsight. It was not there when you were living it. Which I imagine was the opposite of when Dempsey was around. It was certainly there when Tyson was around. And yet his reign was cut so short.

I guess the fighters hardest to beat should include Foreman too. And Liston.

The trouble I think is that we have had more than five top five ATG champions/H2H champions.

I think Larry, Ali, Foreman, Liston and Lewis deserve to be favoured over 90%.

But since there’s probably also only a 10% margin on the 5 I listed losing to other champions what can I do?

 

Interesting choice. Any particular reason why he's above Oba or Borkhorsor, among others?

 

What the actual hell?!
https://boxrec.com/en/ratings?r[rol...eight&r[country]=&r[stance]=&r[status]=&r_go=
Wladimir Klitschko number one?!

 

And No Corrie Sanders? The kids have taken over. It’s official.

 

This **** probably need its own thread.

 

I prefer to pick fighters from a certain range of time/streak of wins for their best h2h version. You can take any fighter and find moments of their career where they were very beatable.

1-Muhammad Ali (1964-1967): No surprise here. Ali seemed to go through a metamorphisis during the first Liston bout in 64. During the course of the fight he became more and more mature as a fighter, taking Liston extremely seriously and picking his shots carefully without any show boating or overly risky maneuvers. From that point on Ali was a monster. Not so much just his raw physical gifts like his speed and reflexes, mentally he was tougher than leather. People often talk about 70's Ali's mental fortitude, but look at fights like the Liston rematch where he had the balls to stand over Liston and demand that he get up (a more sensible fighter would have returned to a neutral corner immediately to take the count), how he taunted Chuvalo and let him blast him in the ribs to prove a point, yelling at Terrel and asking him what his name is after the round, etc.

His footwork doesn't even need much elaboration. His head movement was unbelievable, with the infamous sway against Terrel dodging point blank blows dodging by mere centimetres. It was like combining a ballerina with a matador with a street thug. He had underrated power and was a very good finisher with killer instinct. Contrary to popular belief, he did throw body shots on occasion. I'm confident this version of Ali would win more than he lost in a best of 3 against any HW in history.


2-Lennox Lewis (1997-2000): During this period Lewis had avenged his loss to McCall and was working with legendary trainer Emmanuel Steward. He put together an impressive string of wins crushing Golota who was seen as one of the top 5 heavies in the world at the time, won an entertaining scrap over a prime Briggs, beat two undefeated fighters in Grant and Mavrovic, completely neutered the terrifying Tua who everyone seems to think is invincible, and arguably beat an older but still very formidable Holyfield twice. Not the most glamorous resume but all solid names with good credentials.

Lennox was very formidable and perhaps the most well rounded big man in history during this time frame. He had high ring IQ, was defensively responsible, great at controlling range and keeping guys where he wanted them, packed power in both hands, pumped out his jab, developed a crushing uppercut, and could switch between boxing or slugging depending on the match up. You can move him up or down a few spots, but he definitely belongs in the top 5 in my opinion. The younger Lennox had good speed and raw talent/athleticism, but was a little too offensive at times and left himself open while the older Lennox could be out of shape or lazy in the ring. This is perhaps his absolute peak. A very daunting task for anyone in HW history to face.


3-Joe Louis (1941-1948): Louis proved in this time frame that he was excellent at making adjustments and adapting. Not just in rematches, but during the course of the fight. He beat the highly rate Nova and viciously KO'd Conn, Baer, and Walcott in rematches after struggling with them in the previous fights. He brutally KO'd Schmeling in 1 round after struggling and looking like absolute crap in the previous fight. He had corrected many of his weaknesses and polished his balance, timing, combinations, etc.

Louis did not have the most exciting era, but he brought the excitement. He was so incredibly consistent and disciplined. He was the ultimate boxer puncher who could go from calmly jabbing at you and scoring points to hitting you mercilessly as if you stole something from him. What was scarier than his power was his pin point accuracy, sense of range/timing and aiming for vital spots on purpose to disorient and break guys down. He deserves to be on the list for remaining the #1 most dominant force in the division for such a long period of time and could probably beat anyone at least once during this time frame.


4-Evander Holyfield (1989-1993): Prime Holyfield is so underrated for some reason. Well, here I am ready to set the record straight. This guy was a boxing DYNAMO. After demolishing Douglas, he was like a thoroughbred pit bull in the ring. Full of energy and ready for absolute war, he had every punch in the book, jab, right hand, uppercuts, body shots, etc. He could throw brutal machine gun volleys of 4, 5, 6+ punch combinations. Look at the wild west shootout with Dokes, high level stamina and speed on display. Took out old veterans from the 70's, 80's, had 2 incredible wars with a prime Riddick Bowe and displayed the heart of a lion. Came back after being decked by brutal hooks from Cooper.

Holyfield was a threat both offensively and defensively. He had underrated foot work and knew just when to hit back after being under fire. Could make subtle adjustments to throw off his opponent's rhythm. He was a good finisher and didn't let his opponents relax or coast to a decision. Finally, he displayed some of the best stamina of all time in a war. Prime Holyfield was the ultimate combination of volume punching, mid range slugging, and outside fighting. He could do it all and you were in for a rough night no matter how good your training camp was.


5-George Foreman (1972-1974): It was a brief period, but during this peak Foreman was doing things that might surprise you if all you looked at were the knockouts. He was excellent at controlling range, smothering jabs, and cutting off the ring. Believe it or not, outside of Zaire, he rarely got hit during his absolute best and had excellent defense, sometimes making guys miss widely. Foreman always started the first round calm and collected, studying the opponent and taking mental notes. He waited to see how the opponent would approach and always pivoted off the front foot near ring center to keep his eyes on the opponent and track their movement. You'll notice there wasn't much clinching in Foreman matches because his insane physical strength and slugging ability made this a very dangerous idea. You were screwed at nearly any range.

But once Foreman got comfortable and started landing consistently with his jab, he began to walk you down and land vicious body shots to tenderize opponents. Once they backed up to the ropes it was a wrap. The blows just kept coming like a hail storm, bludgeoning people from every angle with incredibly heavy blows. He intentionally aimed for sensitive areas like the kidneys, solar plexus, temple, etc and turned his fists over at the last second to get even more force and impact. It wasn't until a guy was badly hurt and wobbly that he swung for the fences, putting an insane amount of force into each punch that looked as though he was hitting people with a wrecking ball. Most importantly, his mental strength was at an all time high and he approached fights like a stoic assassin who had simply clocked in to take care of business. This was demoralizing as his expression never changed even after getting hit and he responded by beating the breaks off of people and then calmly resting his arms on the ropes as the ref gave a count. Arguably the nastiest and most vicious boxer in HW history.




Honorable mentions:


-Larry Holmes (1978-1985)
-Wladmir Klitschko (2006-2011)
-Sonny Liston (1959-1963)


You could make a strong case for any of these 3 being in the top 5 and replacing anyone after Ali.

 

Ali
Holmes
Tyson
Lewis
Louis

 

Beautiful George and placed right in my opinion. A couple I'd disagree with but 4 the most part on point. Cudo's.

 

Would you consider Sam Langford at any weight? I suppose you don't have some older legends like Greb, Fitzsimmons, Gans or Leonard because of lack of tape, but Langford (and to a lesser degree Leonard/Gans) has enough footage to compare him to other legends. To me he's a lock at LHW, even though he usually fought at HW.

 

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I didn't consider him due to the lack of tape, you're right. That said, I included Wolgast at flyweight and I'm pretty sure that there's less footage of him than there is Langford - so, I suppose it's only fair I give them both a fair shake. Actually, Wilde probably has less footage than Langford too

Yeah, I suppose I can see him beating a few on my LHW list. I doubt he'd beat Spinks, Moore or Charles, but he'd have good odds vs Foster and RJJ. At middle, he's interesting. Could he beat Robinson? Maybe Hopkins or Jones? Maybe.

Just as a side note, given the limited footage I've seen of Fitz, Leonard and Gans didn't impress me enough to actually make the top five. They were all considered, but I decided to leave them off. Even in those little brief clips, they didn't jump off the screen I expected them too. Greb was considered as well, but I didn't want him at one because I want confirmation that he is actually better than Hagler or Jones.

 

Personally, I'd only take Charles at LHW over him. I'd pick Langford even over my beloved Moore and I'd bet on him against Foster definitely. They were all fantastic of course, so it's not that bad that you missed him

I don't know lower classes as well as you, but Benny Leonard impressed me more than almost anyone when I first watched him. He was the greatest pure boxer I've ever seen personally, but it's possible that I overrate him because I find his style very entertaining to watch.

 

No love for RJJ?

I wouldn't favour anyone from MW to LHW over him.

 

I kind of get the feel that he was the type of guy who could take anyone in a series. I think if he had been a few years younger when he got to Ohba he probably would have been able to beat him. A somewhat shopworn version was still able to shake Ohba up pretty bad in their fight and give him a really rough time. Close to his prime, he was just a monster and anybody able to overcome him in one fight probably wouldn't have been able to replicate that result I reckon.

 

I think many like you, myself and others never felt like they were witnessing greatness with Lewis. Some who saw him in training never saw it either. One even called him average. So I totally get your point.
It took me years after he retired to start to appreciate him properly. That's not to say I'm not aware or that I forgot his lesser moments or qualities as a fighter, but rather that I've become more appreciative of his good qualities as the years have rolled on.
I don't know if he's a H2H monster. He could be.
He's got the size, overall ability, intelligence and right mix of intangibles to potentially be a real handful for anyone.
But he has his foibles and moments of inexplicable averageness too, as does anyone.