Ranking Heavyweight Contenders

No, I will never give you the purse for that fight buy the book!Educate yourself you dumb ****!

 

The consensus of ringsiders in the O'Brien fight was for a draw. If newspaper verdicts are being discounted, then Langford never suffered several of those losses and draws you listed (like Flynn and Wills) as they were also no decision bouts. Seeing as O'Brien's typical fighting weight was around 165 and Johnson's was around 200 (and he was also described as being overweight), then I think we can safely assume quite a size disparity.

Battling Jim (who got a title shot despite not being white) fought Langford 12 times. He got a draw once and lost all the others! He faced Jeannette nine times, going 1-7-1. Do you think if Jack fought Battling Jim a dozen times over several years he wouldn't suffer a blip at some point? Especially if up against a huge size difference like Langford always was.

 

It would not be the first mixed-race fight, and I asked you to show me where there was trouble in the past. Can you? Like usual when I ask you question you go quiet and post news links without answering my question. It's a pattern...

I can show you news links that say the fight was offered.

The fight was offered. Jackson balked when he had the chance. The challenger does not dictate the venue unless he's the main attraction. Its a fact Corbett offered it. Jackson should have taken it.

No promoter is going to risk his live gate for an attack. It would not happen. And Jackson would have his corner and security if needed.

I've never heard of fighter attacked in the ring based on race. The closest thing to it was Bowe's crazy manager and security people attacking Golota. And that was over 100 years later.

 

No, I think if a 35 years old Johnson who hadn't fought in a year and a half and was handicapped with a broken arm could hold Jim Johnson to a draw a properly prepared, and younger Jack Johnson would beat the **** out of Battling Jim every time.
Of course the 1st Smith v Langford fight and the Jim Johnson v Langford fights that Langford lost ,both were official decision bouts and not NSW verdicts,the only one that was , was the Flynn loss.
Langford also:
Drew with Jim Johnson in1914 ,official decision.
Drew with Colin Bell in1913 , official decision.
Drew with Sam McVey in1913 ,official decision.
Drew with Sandy Fergusion in1909 ,official decision.
Lost to Jeannette in1915,official decision.
Lost to McVey in1911 ,official decision.
I've confined myself to around the timeline of Johnsons's reign,I think my point stands.


The Johnson v O Brien fight was a designated NO DECISION which is totally different to a NWS where both parties agree to abide by the consensus news paper verdicts.
Likewise the Jeannette losses to debutee Jack Thompson,Jim Johnson, and Sandy Ferguson were officially rendered decisions.

 

It would be the first mixed race HEAVYWEIGHT TITLE FIGHT would it not? YES OR NO? There was no trouble in the past about a similar fight simply because one had never occurred involving the heavyweight title in the US!
I can show news links where Corbett does everything to not fight Jackson.Pollack has loads of them!
You have no idea what would have happened had Jackson beaten Corbett and taken the heavyweight title in the Deep South , so stop talking utter nonsense!

 

When you fight someone 12 times over a period of eight years you aren't always properly prepared and you aren't always young. Johnson had enough losses and draws in his career, not all of them against all-time greats, to tell me he could be picked off by a Battling Jim once in 12 fights. Heck, the one time he fought Battling Jim he was almost upset by him. It's not like he entered the ring with a broken arm, it got injured during the fight. Comparable to Hearns breaking his hand on Hagler's head. Danny Williams won a fight with his arm hanging out of its socket.

Who cares that no official decision was rendered? The consensus of ringsiders at the O'Brien fight was a draw. Do you disagree? Johnson could have at least shown a little pride as champion or tried to outdo his pal Ketchel who had recently beaten the hell out of O'Brien.

Between Johnson beating Burns and losing to Willard, Langford had some 70 bouts, fighting all over the world, many of them against Hall of Famers and others contenders, many of whom he was also conceding considerable amounts of weight, height and reach to. He won the vast majority of those fights. So he lost to Smith once and drew with Bell once. He KO'd both in rematches. So he drew with Battling Jim once. That series ended 11-0-1 to Langford. So he drew with McVea and Jeannette. Did Johnson defend against McVea or Jeannette?

You can rag on Sam because he had the occasional loss and draw in tough busy schedule, but that sort of falls flat when you compare it to what Johnson was doing at the same time, fighting at a much more leisurely rate and even then only defending against journeymen who had already LOST to Langford or light-heavies and middleweights he outweighed by 30lbs+. Oh and a 35 year old who hadn't had a fight in six years.

 

Johnson breaking his arm in the 3rd round changes that result tremendously imo. Johnson was 35 years old and hadn't fought in one and a half years. Hearns was prime for Hagler. You brought up the NWS not me ,I merely pointed out which were official decision bouts and which weren't. Langford had a busy schedule ,Johnson had the little matter of being a fugitive in exile for a significant part of his reign. I don't rag on Sam I consider him top 3 p4p all time I just know having read Moyles book that he wasn't often in good shape ,so the idea propounded by our resident Johnson hater Mendoza,that all Sam had to do was get Johnson in the ring and the title would change hands is absolute BS. Johnson was the highest weight average for title challengers until Louis came along this BS about all his opponents being small middles is just a load of tosh. Johnson didnt defend against either McVey or Jeannette but he signed to defend against McVey and Langford inAustralia only to have the offer withdrawn,He also signed to defend against Jeannette twice inN Y only to have the defences vetoed by the NY commission .
Was it his fault The White public wanted to see him fight white challengers?
Johnson's schedule was every bit as busy as Langford's before he became champ,he was fighting around every two weeks and once fought Jeannette and Walter Johnson on the same day.
Once Champ he could command $30,000 a fight.
Langford never saw a fraction of that for a fight,his biggest purse was against Iron Hague in London, he had to stay busy to eat!

 

Johnson's claim that the public only wanted to see him fight white challengers rings a bit hollow in light of him defending against Battling Jim. That there were also a number of offers from around the world for him to face Langford suggests there was actually some interest in staging a fight that supposedly there was no public demand for.

Bottom line is I think Sam did more than enough to be considered Johnson's best challenger. Occasional losses and draws in a busy schedule didn't do much to affect his standing as I don't see anyone out there surpassing him in that time frame and certainly not anyone Johnson actually defended against.

I wouldn't be so daft as to predict an easy win for Langford. Johnson would always have been a tough proposition for Sam because of his style and size. Could he do it? Sure. Would he? Who knows. Either way, he deserved his chance to find out.

 

He defended against Johnson as a tune up for Moran, because he hadn't fought for a year and a half.
Please produce a verified offer for Johnson to defend his title against Langford for $30,000, Johnson's price for a defence that he refused?
I've been asking for one from Mendoza for 9 years now!
I agree Langford was his standout challenger.I also know that Johnson agreed to fight him in Australia and offered to fight him in the US ,providing he and Woodman his manager posted $3000 bond as evidence of good faith which Johnson agreed to match.Woodman was unable to come up with the do re mi. Clay Moyle is the acknowledged expert on Langford,he believes prime for prime Johnson beats Sam. Langford obviously improved after their sole fight, just as obviously so did Johnson.

 

Evander was on the mat,,,,seriously hurt.

 

He defended against a black challenger, which disproves his oft repeated excuse that there was no interest/money in him facing black challengers. So why fight a much less distinguished black challenger for less than he could have made with Langford? The myriad big money offers from promoters all over the world for a Langford fight that he claimed the white public wouldn't want to see also refute that claim.

Why did the offer have to be $30,000? Johnson actually only made that sum in a few of his defences. He DID fight for less than $30,000 when it suited him (or rather he had no choice, as promoters just wouldn't pay that much for some of the men he wanted to fight). He didn't make $30,000 fighting O'Brien, Ketchel, Moran, or Johnson, for instance. Not sure what he made for Ross or Kaufmann but I doubt anyone coughed up $30,000 to see him face either of those two.

Hugh McIntosh repeatedly made Johnson offers to fight Langford. "$30,000 Offer to Jack Johnson" (New York Times, 26th June 1912). There was another offer of $30,000, plus an additional $15,000 apiece to face McVea and Jeannette too (9th Dec 1912). This went on for months but Johnson could never be pinned down, so in the end McIntosh gave up. Here's what McIntosh had to say on the subject: "When I would get Johnson near the point of a match with Langford he would stall me off with some excuse. Finally I made things so hot for Johnson that he admitted to me that Langford was too tough a game to tackle, and he passed the little fellow up." (quoted in Clay Moyle's book)

In 1909 Johnson actually signed a contract to face Langford with the National Sporting Club in London which he then reneged on. In 1914, in rejecting another offer for a Langford bout from the NSC, Johnson himself mentioned a £5000 ($25,000) offer from the Olympia, less than his asking price but more than he made fighting Battling Jim or Moran and a tidy sum to turn down for a fugitive rapidly running out of money (London Times, 17th Feb 1914). Then there's Theodore Vienne who says he made Johnson a $25,000 offer (later upped to $30,000) to face Langford in Paris (Winnipeg Tribune, Dec 27 1913). So yeah there was plenty of interest/big money out there for the fight if Johnson was so inclined.

I'm sure Clay Moyle has also said that Langford would have been a big threat to Johnson, and that Johnson should have given Langford his rightful title shot. Regardless of that, no one can say who would have won a fight that never took place.

 

="Berlenbach, post: 19548467, member: 75254"]He defended against a black challenger, which disproves his oft repeated excuse that there was no interest/money in him facing black challengers. So why fight a much less distinguished black challenger for less than he could have made with Langford? The myriad big money offers from promoters all over the world for a Langford fight that he claimed the white public wouldn't want to see also refute that claim.

Why did the offer have to be $30,000? Johnson actually only made that sum in a few of his defences. He DID fight for less than $30,000 when it suited him (or rather he had no choice, as promoters just wouldn't pay that much for some of the men he wanted to fight). He didn't make $30,000 fighting O'Brien, Ketchel, Moran, or Johnson, for instance. Not sure what he made for Ross or Kaufmann but I doubt anyone coughed up $30,000 to see him face either of those two.

Hugh McIntosh repeatedly made Johnson offers to fight Langford. "$30,000 Offer to Jack Johnson" (New York Times, 26th June 1912). There was another offer of $30,000, plus an additional $15,000 apiece to face McVea and Jeannette too (9th Dec 1912). This went on for months but Johnson could never be pinned down, so in the end McIntosh gave up. Here's what McIntosh had to say on the subject: "When I would get Johnson near the point of a match with Langford he would stall me off with some excuse. Finally I made things so hot for Johnson that he admitted to me that Langford was too tough a game to tackle, and he passed the little fellow up." (quoted in Clay Moyle's book)

In 1909 Johnson actually signed a contract to face Langford with the National Sporting Club in London which he then reneged on. In 1914, in rejecting another offer for a Langford bout from the NSC, Johnson himself mentioned a £5000 ($25,000) offer from the Olympia, less than his asking price but more than he made fighting Battling Jim or Moran and a tidy sum to turn down for a fugitive rapidly running out of money (London Times, 17th Feb 1914). Then there's Theodore Vienne who says he made Johnson a $25,000 offer (later upped to $30,000) to face Langford in Paris (Winnipeg Tribune, Dec 27 1913). So yeah there was plenty of interest/big money out there for the fight if Johnson was so inclined.

I'm sure Clay Moyle has also said that Langford would have been a big threat to Johnson, and that Johnson should have given Langford his rightful title shot. Regardless of that, no one can say who would have won a fight that never took place.[/QUOTE]
Let me correct you on a few points here.
1.Johnson accepted McIntosh's offer for two defences against both McVey and Langford.
The financial details and the reason why the offer was withdrawn by McIntosh are in Pollack's book of Johnson, as is a public statement that McIntosh made to the Australian press citing his reason for withdrawing his offer.
I've posted this information several times.Should you doubt my word I will at your request ,post it again, just for your benefit!

2.Johnson signed no contract to fight Langford in 1909.
3.He signed to fight Langford in the Autumn of 1908.His purse to be £3000.
3.Once Champion [Dec 26th 1908,] Johnson declared his purse for defending his new title was the exact same as that Burns had demanded and received for defending against himself ie $30,000.
4.Neither the NSC or Olympia were prepared to give Johnson $30,000 for a defence.The NSC were in fact notorious for having a parsimonius purse.
5.Vienne verbally offered Johnson$25,000 to fight Jeannette, Johnson stipulated he wanted$30,000, but stipulated he would decide the duration of the contest.20/25 rds was bandied about as the shortest distance the Frenchman would consider,Johnson held out for a maximum of 15 rds knowing ,he was an old 33 years old and had not been in the best shape for several years .
Jeannette was known as the marathon man, a fighter who always did better the longer a fight went.Any odds in his favour would dramatically increase the longer the fight went.
Johnson had been able to knock Jeannette down several times in their past fights, but had never managed to stop him, now at 33 the chances of him turning the trick were pretty remote.
Johnson as champion felt he should be the one deciding how long the distance would be not Vienne who had a history of animosity towards Johnson and called for him to be stripped of his title 2 years later. Johnson as champ did not see why ,"the tail should wag the dog."
You have come up with one verbal offer that Johnson refused but, as I have shown, it had strings to it,strings that would have possibly given the edge towards the challenger.I must say possibly because in their 5 meetings Jeannette managed just one controversial dsq win,and was floored multiple times in their series without ever being able to return the favour.
PS Johnson signed to defend against Jeanntte in NY twice the promoters were the McMahon brothers.
Both times the NYAC vetoed the fights and made public statements giving their reasons for not allowing Johnson to box in NY these statement and the promoters are also in Pollack's bio of Johnson and again I can provide them if you doubt my word.
I think that covers your points.
NB I have never said Langford would not be a huge threat to Johnson nor that he did not deserve his shot,what I have said and can prove is that he was given 2 chances by Champion Johnson one in Australia one in the States which did not happen the first because the offer was withdrawn when Johnson became a fugitive,the second whenJoe woodman failed to come up with the necessary money binder for the fight. I don't suggest Johnson was in any rush to fight defend against Langford ,after all he was getting $31,500 to defend against the likes of Jim Flynn ,a man he had already trounced.But he agreed to defend against him and McVey in Australia and that is a matter of public record.
Consider this for a moment , Moyle says Langford's best weight was 175/180lbs Johnson said he was in the shape of his life when he fought Jeffries,for which fight he was 208lbs.Minimum 28lbs weight advantage 5 inches in height advantage.

Let us say Langford is 180lbs facing 208lbs Johnson.Who wins?
ps Johnson could not lose his title against O Brien as it was a 6 rds No Decision affair which is precisely why Johnson was out partying the night before and not in good shape for the contest.
Johnson didn't make anything for the Moran fight neither did his challenger the money was tied up in a law suit once WW1 broke out.
Johnsons purse for the Ketch fight was split into 2 parts.
1.$12,597
2.40% Of the film rights which were considerably more than the combined purses .
Johnson also won a $5000 side bet that he would stop Ketchel inside 15 rds.
There were 8000 paid admissions the second largest crowd ever in that arena,beaten only by Corbett Jeffries 2 which had 600 more.
Johnson also won a $5000 side bet that he would stop Ketchel inside 15rds .
The Ross fight was a 6 rds No Dec with Johnson guaranteed $2000 I don't know what he received for the fight ,only that he played with Ross.
The Kaufman bout was a 10rds No Decision and Pollack gives conflicting reports as to the purses,but none of them matched $30,000 Johnson was a on a % of the gate I believe.Johnson won every round by a mile.
ps Langford refused to fight Kaufman,that's in Moyle's book too!
Nice talking to a sensible poster.

Some more facts.

On August the 14 1912 Johnson signed to fight Joe Jeannette in a 10 rd bout at the St Nicholas Arena NYC the fight to take place on Sep25th ,the fight to be promoted by Jesse and Eddie McMahon, Johnson accepted a
$25,000 guarantee with the proviso that if the gate receipts totalled $60,000Johnson would receive $30,000 plus and additional 35% of any amounts exceeding the total of $60,000 .Johnson would also receive 50% interest in the film films.Johnson also offered to buy the other 50% film rights as Jeannette was popular in Europe.
Johnson deposited $5000 forfeit money into the hands of Al Tearney as evidence of his good faith and demanded the McMahon Bros did the same. Seems like he wanted the fight to me! On Aug 22nd The McMahon Bros after a behind closed doors session with the NYAC called off the fight.
Sept 7 1912 Victor Breyer verbally offered Johnson $30,000 to defend against Jeannette in Paris or Monte Carlo the distance to be 30rds, at that time Johnson was weighing242lbs according to Pollack.
In Sep1912 Hugh McIntosh offered Johnson$25,000 to defend against Langford and $25,000 to defend against McVey in a 2 fight deal the bouts to be held in Australia,the 1st fight against Langford to be on Boxing Day . Johnson said he wanted more.
On Oct 12 1912 Johnson announced he had agreed terms with McIntosh to defend against both Langford and McVey for $55,000 plus$5000 training expanses so a total of $60,000 plus 5 round tickets forfeits of $10,000 for the 2 fights to be posted with Al Tearney . The offer was withdrawn by McIntosh when Johnson jumped bail and became a fugitive

ps Vienne' s offer to Johnson was for $25,000 not $30,000 according to Pollack.

Ps Ive just accidentally deleted a load more info I had my book propped up on the screen.Anyway ,if you want any more detail just ask.

 

After rejecting a load of McIntosh offers to face Langford, the one he finally accepted was followed three days later by him then demanding that an additional $15,000 forfeit be posted in America (according to Clay Moyle). So he hadn't really accepted that one either. It was still going back and forth when the Mann Act charges came about and McIntosh pulled out. He was of the opinion that Johnson had no intention of ever facing Langford.

Given he'd already backed out of one signed agreement to face Langford, preferring to face lesser lights for less money, and never took up any of the multitude of big money offers throughout his reign, you'd have to doubt how serious Johnson was about that last McIntosh offer either. When you also consider Johnson's own words on the subject (and also comments he made to the likes of Duke Mullins) to the effect that he had no intention of defending against Langford, you have to further doubt it.

Johnson himself gave a written undertaking to the NSC that he would face Langford on Feb 22nd 1909. This was reprinted in the New York Times, 10th April 1909.

£3000 was $15,000 in 1908, far more than he made for Burns, O'Brien, Ross and comparable to his Ketchel takings. He wouldn't make $30,000 until Jeffries almost two years later. Why not just take the Langford fight and collect an easy £3000? Unless he didn't think it would be so easy. Going about it the way he did makes it seem like he just didn't want to fight Langford. Do you think Johnson would have turned down £3000 to fight Fireman Jim or Battling Jim?

Which also brings this to mind... in the aftermath of him backing out of that fight, Johnson was stung by all the flak he got so he offered to go ahead with it provided each fighter put up an additional $10,000 as a side bet as well. Langford promptly did this and when no response from Johnson was forthcoming, Sam said he would leave his £10,000 up and Johnson could bet $0 for his end ("Sam Langford has called Jack Johnson bluff in a way that places the latter in a rather embarrassing predicament" - Washington Post, 18th November 1909). Again, no response from Jack.

Except what Johnson demanded and what in reality he would settle for were not always the same. He only received his asking price three times in nine defences (Jeffries, Flynn, Willard), and far far less than that for most of the others. And he only got $30,000 for Flynn because Jack Curley greatly overestimated how big that fight would be. His asking price wasn't met again until he fought Willard right at the end. When he demanded it for Moran, the promoter of that fight basically said he could take or leave what was being offered, and he took it. Johnson even went through the charade of accepting a fake cheque for $30,000 just to keep up appearances!

According to Johnson himself, the Olympia did go as high as $25,000 in 1914.

But we're talking about a Langford fight, not Jeannette. I've not really delved into a Johnson-Jeannette bout so I shall take your word on all that. All these Jeannette offers you've mentioned and Johnson's interest in the fight seem to further undermine his excuse that there was no money/interest in him fighting black challengers. Along with actually defending against Battling Jim. Maybe it was just one particular black challenger that didn't interest him.

I can understand the Flynn fight because of the money. But what about all those other fights where he wasn't making anything close to what was on offer for Langford?

Are you referring to that time Johnson gave Langford and Woodman 24 hours to come up with $20,000 to bind a fight (having already backtracked on his pledge the previous day that HE would put up the money first)? These offers all fit into a pattern of Johnson continually moving the goalposts and making unreasonable demands.

Pretty much every heavyweight Langford ever faced had those kind of physical advantages over him and Langford beat every one he faced at least once from 1908 to 1916.

Like any fight there are several possibilities. The most likely outcome is Johnson on points. The second most likely outcome is Langford by KO. No guarantees in boxing though. It could be a 20 round snoozer or it could all be over in a minute. Either way it has no relevance to whether they should have fought.

So why face Moran for peanuts when there was much bigger money being offered by the Olympia and NSC to face Langford in London?

I'd be interested to know how much he made from the movie rights but it's probably impossible to say now. Of course a Langford fight would have involved side bets and movie rights too.

Never disputed that Johnson won those fights handily. But here's the thing. The O'Brien, Ross and Kaufmann fights all took place in 1909, the same year Johnson backed out of a signed fight with Langford because the £3000/$15,000 purse didn't meet his new $30,000 demand. But neither did the purses for those fights. Why was Johnson fighting O'Brien, an opponent he took so lightly he didn't even bother to train, and two journeymen for peanuts when he could have been fighting Langford for more money? But more threat too...

It is indeed and he explains why Langford didn't go through with that fight.

Vienne's offer was $30,000 according to Vienne himself. Regardless, either amount was far more than what Johnson was making against Moran and Battling Jim.

Likewise.

 

I would need to see this signed agreement ,my bet is it is a reprint of the 1908 one, when Johnson was not yet champion. Pollack makes no mention of it. On Langford I would take Moyle's word ,on Johnson, Pollack's!
Johnson was sincere about the two fight deal with McIntosh,and once McIntosh withdrew the offer he himself posted his reasons in the Aussie papers, no mention was made of Johnson stalling or wishing to back out of the fights.If this had in fact been the case wouldn't McIntosh have said so? Instead he cited the Australian public's reluctance and concern about entertaining and financially rewarding a fugitive for justice.
Johnson did turn down $20,000 at one point to fight Flynn,and Curley upped it to $30,000 plus $1,500 expenses which he paid, losing money on the deal.
Its all very well people saying ,Johnson could have fought here, he could have fought there but the reality is many doors were closed to him
Johnson agreed to fight Jeannette twice once his price of $30,000 was met, he posted a large cash bond as evidence of good faith. The NYAC vetoed both attempts to put on the fight.They and the promoters gave their reasons as being Johnson was not a desirable person.They went so far as to threaten any promoter with having his licence withdrawn should he attempt to put on the fight.
Johnson at the time was in Chicago and tried to box an exhibition for a hospital charity in that city , the Chicago AC blocked it.That's two big cities that would not entertain a Johnson fight.
He signed via an intermediary to fight both Langford and McVey once his terms were met.Saying he did not intend to go through with the fights is pure speculation unsupported by any facts .
He would have made a fortune for the Langford &McVey defences , why wouldn't he go through with the fights?
He was guaranteed $35,000 to defend against Moran and received cheque for that amount,it was tied up in litigation.
So we have Johnson fighting
Flynn
Moran
Jeffries
For his terms and agreeing to fight Jeannette,Langford,& McVey for them too, the offers being withdrawn due to circumstances outside his control. ps Vienne had strings to his offers.