Ranking Heavyweight Contenders

This argument doesn't really make sense.

The difference is Battling Jim was Low Risk Low Reward, whereas Langford et al were High Risk Low Reward.

 

Battling Jim was taken as a tune up for Moran ,obviously this went pear shaped when Johnson broke his radius bone in the fight.

 

Just on the original question--

"what they accomplished at their best"

I think a variation of what would be my first criterion for ranking contenders--who were the best men this contender defeated? Many contenders fade fast and lose a lot past prime, so I would focus less on that than on their biggest victories. (different main criteria would produce different results)

As for your list, very good. I don't know about Ibeabuchi being a "should have" rather than a "could have" been champion off such a brief career, but he does look impressive on film.

Cleveland Williams seems a bit out of place in his tier considering how badly he lost to Liston and Ali. I don't think he ever rose above #4 contender.

You caught flak for Rex Layne, but I think you rate him about right. Wins over two champions near the time they were champion is an unusual and impressive accomplishment.

Where do you rate Elmer Ray? Steve Hamas? Ernie Schaaf?

 

I don't understand this at all. None of these guys were journeymen. And NONE of them "sucked."

 

Sonny Liston never fought Cleveland Williams during his "reign."

Muhammad Ali was the greatest contender Liston fought during his "reign." He ended Liston's reign.

 

I don't need to check their losses. They were all top contenders during their eras. They didn't suck.

Tony Galento was the #1 contender when he fought for the title. Don Cockell was the #2 contender when he fought for the title. That was in the era when there was one ratings org.

Nobody in their eras thought they sucked.

That's also an odd statement to make for someone propping up Cleveland Williams. He 'should've' been champ? Based on what? The fact that Sonny Liston destroyed him twice?

What did Williams do to warrant such high standing?

Hell, Henry Cooper beat better contenders than Cleveland Williams did. Henry Cooper did better against Ali than Williams did.

But Cooper 'sucked' and Williams "should've won' a title?

Jesus.

 

Yes, why would Ali be part of the discussion.

If Williams was the bar, it wasn't a very high bar.

 

If you say you've accepted a deal, then days later you make additional demands, can you really be said to have accepted it? Moyle mentions that Johnson's demands over the forfeit had not been resolved when McIntosh called it all off. In his press statements McIntosh just said the proposed matches were no longer desirable because of the charges against Johnson and he was calling off negotiations.

There was plenty of money, interest etc for a Langford bout if Johnson was truly interested. Backing out of an agreement to fight Langford doesn't look good, especially when his next four fights earned him less than what he demanded to face Langford. Nor does never accepting any of the many big money offers for the fight. That's before you get to his numerous statements to the effect that he didn't want to fight Langford again. The fact that he was happy to fight Battling Jim and was negotiating to fight Jeannette (who hadn't beaten Langford since 1905!) just makes it more egregious. He didn't mind taking on less threatening black challengers, despite his claims there was no money fighting them anyway.

BTW The cheque Johnson received for Moran was worthless and he knew it was. The promoter didn't have that money and the man they said did denied all knowledge of it! Johnson just made a point of posing with the cheque to make it seem like his demands had been met.

 

Johnson's argument against a Langford fight was that the white public wouldn't pay to watch him fight a black challenger. So why fight Battling Jim, a much less distinguished black challenger? It's not as if there was huge demand even to see him face some of his white challengers, as the Fireman Jim fight bombed and everyone but Johnson lost money on it.

 

The amount was $35,000 and World War1 broke out next day. Johnson agreed to fight Langford in mid October for a purse of$30,000 plus 50% of the film rights,the articles to be signed in London on July1st .Why it didnt happen I don't know. Jeannette hadn't beaten Langford since 1905 but he had drawn with him 3 times ,and 10 months after Johnson beat Moran, Jeannette beat Langford so lets not imply he was past doing so.
McKetrick was just the front.

 

^ Regarding the Johnson-Moran bout, this is from the New York Times, 7th June 1914.

The New York Times correspondent witnessed the signing of the agreement, also the farce of photographing the check for 175,000 francs, drawn to the order of Johnson, which the articles declared was to be paid to him or his wife the afternoon of the fight. The check, which was on the American Express Company, was signed by Charles McCarthy, the old Coney Island showman, who admitted that he did not possess that much money of his own and was said to be acting for "rich Americans".

When pressed to say who the owners of the money were both Johnson and Moran mentioned the name of William Astor Chanler, who was then, and still is, a patient in the American hospital at Neiilly. That Mr Chanler did not advance McCarthy sufficient money to draw such a check was made clear by Charles Chanler.

According to Unforgivable Blackness, Johnson was told by McKetrick to "stop your kidding Jack" when he asked for $30,000, but to maintain the pretence that he had not backed down from his demands, it was arranged for Johnson to be pictured receiving a cheque for $35,000. The worthless cheque was torn up afterwards. Ward reports that Johnson's share of the money impounded after the fight amounted to $14,400.