Ranking the Greats: your assistance please

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Stonehands89, Sep 27, 2009.


  1. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Sorry to complicate it even further, but as you asking...

    ...i think ring dominance translates into ring ability in a crucial way. You are correct to say Burley's MW wins are more impressive than Jones's, although he was more dominant, but there is another side to the coin. A fighter who can remain in condition with maintained concentration in the "Calzaghe fashion" (not a compliment for Joe that!) will tend to be a fighter who continual maintains focus and concentration in the ring, for any given fight, regardless of the opponent. Tyson for example, was never going to maintain at the top - he just couldn't maintain a lifestyle condusive to boxing or an attitude condusive to winning, long term. In the ring, we saw him frustrated and boxing badly versus Smith when frustrated, and biting of Evander's ear when out-manned. Domination at the top is worth more than just raw stats. Historically, dominant fighters tend to be the most unflappable and focused in the ring (see Joe Louis for the definitive example, but Monzon may be an even better one). Dominating opposition over an extended period tends to herald a fighter as perfect as that fighter could be. I'd argue that your category for EXP takes up the slack here.
     
  2. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 VIP Member

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    Good to see ya!

    Where would these possibly fit in

    Ability to get up for and perform at one's greatest for the biggest fights - SRL being an excellent example.

    Ability to use (And resist, i guess) external sources and psychological warfare in order to put an opponent off his game - Ali and SRL anybody? There are fighters that could put people off (Ali, SRL), and fighters that could be put off (Hagler etc)

    Perhaps i bark up the wrong tree, a few beers under the belt and just trying to brainstorm.
     
  3. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    :lol:

    When is this ever a good idea, John? That **** there almost got me married.
     
  4. Stonehands89

    Stonehands89 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Say however many things you want to say, SS. The article is gonna be published and I want all my bases covered.

    As to RG. I agree completely and that is how I see it as well.

    I understand your point... but it's a tough sell. I am committed to scoring categories based on what was, not on what may have been or what surely may have been... does it discriminate against modern fighters? Yep. But I'd say it's warranted.

    I will be on guard about this point. I am looking to use one fighter as the gold standard and then rank the others accordingly. Moore and Duran for example, both could get the highest scores. I'm also thinking of including those fighters who fought so often in so short a span as scoring high here... is that fair? Greb for example -dead at 31 but that crazy ******* had 45 fights in 1919.

    I thought about that, and did that with the Greatest atg HW thread. However, there are hundreds of fighters who have to be considered and a larger numerical range allows for more differentiation. Robinson would get a 10 for RG. Duran would get perhaps a 9, but relative to other fighters that 9 may not leave enough distance between Duran and say James Toney.
     
  5. Stonehands89

    Stonehands89 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Listen, complicate the hell out of me. I welcome it. Nit-pick and nag me til I call you mother-in-law!

    Excellent points. I think that you are convincing me.
     
  6. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    :lol:

    I would, but I think that's basically me. Will keep an eye on this thread, and i'll be keen to see what you do next.
     
  7. Stonehands89

    Stonehands89 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Glad to see you and thanks for posting.

    Great points. I'd say that "Ability to get up for and perform at one's greatest for the biggest fights" is threaded underneath a few categories. The psychological edge thing, and I'm thinking of Robinson drinking blood in the presence of Lamotta would be under RG.
     
  8. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 VIP Member

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    I'm hearin' ya Mac, i am hearin' ya hahaha. Been enjoying your work too.
     
  9. Stonehands89

    Stonehands89 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I still chuckle about that time you put up a drunken post taking credit for one of my posts. And then you had that "drunk top ten" thread. Classic, classic stuff.
     
  10. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    :lol:

    That one even confused me in the morning.
     
  11. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 VIP Member

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    Cheers mate, i'll look again totally sober tomorrow. Might even comment after another Jimmy B or so too, tho :lol:
     
  12. Stonehands89

    Stonehands89 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    By all means! As long as you're not reduced to typing with your nose pressed to the keyboard.
     
  13. sweet_scientist

    sweet_scientist Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    :good


    Fair enough. Though I guess someone could run the same argument on you with regards to the 'real' fighters that used to go 20, 25 rounds, which you are leaving out of the equation.


    Someone like Greb would score huge on longevity by my thinking for sure. Higher than Duran and Moore for mine.


    True, but then I don't think it's really fair to rank experience/level of comp on the same level as ring generalship. They just don't seem to be in the same stratosphere of importance to me. The ultimate measure has to be the fighter's resume I think when all is said and done.
     
  14. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    I agree with this for the most part, but Stonie's system allows for just a little bit of wiggle-room for those fighters who didn't have a high level of competition available to them...there are categories that allow for a little speculation as to how the quality of a fiven fighter would translate in those conditions. I think that's as it should be, although you have to be careful about allowing too much scope.
     
  15. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 VIP Member

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    We'll call that


    This content is protected


    :lol: