Ranking the Heavyweights: Sullivan to Tunney

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by BitPlayerVesti, Sep 23, 2018.


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  1. BitPlayerVesti

    BitPlayerVesti Boxing Drunkie Full Member

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    First I think all the lineal champions merit inclusion

    John L Sullivan
    James J Corbett
    Bob Fitzsimmons
    James J Jeffries
    Marvin Hart
    Tommy Burns
    Jack Johnson
    Jess Willard
    Jack Dempsey
    Gene Tunney

    My initial ranking of these heavyweights:
    Jack Johnson
    James J Jeffries
    Jack Dempsey
    John L Sullivan
    Bob Fitzsimmons
    Gene Tunney
    James J Corbett
    Jess Willard
    Tommy Burns
    Marvin Hart

    I think the key black champions should also be included
    George Godfrey
    Peter Jackson
    Frank Childs
    Denver Ed Martin
    Sam Langford
    Sam McVea
    Joe Jeanette
    Harry Wills

    My initial ranking:
    Peter Jackson
    Sam Langford
    Harry Wills
    Joe Jeanette
    Sam McVea
    George Godfrey
    Denver Ed Martin
    Frank Childs

    I'll also add the prominent contenders:
    Charlie Mitchell
    Jack Burke
    Dommick McCaffery
    Jake Kilrain
    Frank Slavin
    Joe Goddard
    Peter Maher
    Joe Choynski
    Tom Sharkey
    Gus Ruhlin
    Kid McCoy
    Jack Root
    George Gardner
    Philidephia Jack O'Brien
    Fireman Jim Flynn
    Gunboat Smith
    Luther McCarty
    Battling Jim Johnson
    Jeff Clark
    Fred Fulton
    Kid Norfolk
    Frank Moran
    Billy Miske
    Harry Greb
    Jim Coffey

    My ranking:
    Tom Sharkey
    Gus Ruhlin
    Joe Goddard
    Peter Maher
    Jeff Clark
    Frank Slavin
    Harry Greb
    Billy Miske
    Tommy Gibbons
    Charlie Mitchell
    Fred Fulton
    Luther McCarty
    Joe Choynski
    Kid McCoy
    Jake Kilrain
    George Gardner
    Kid Norfolk
    Gunboat Smith
    Frank Moran
    Philidephia Jack O'Brien
    Jack Root
    Jim Coffey
    Jack Burke
    Fireman Jim Flynn
    Dommick McCaffery
    Battling Jim Johnson

    Before I put it all together: Anyone I missed? Any rankings that should be swapped about? (Please give reasons for any changes ("ur dum" isn't a reason))

    Edit: I'll Add Burke, McCaffery, Slavin, McCoy, Greb, Miske, Gibbons.
    On reflection, O'Brien probably ought to go higher than Flynn.
    Edit: Including a lot of contenders, Hart probably should be included too.
    Edit: I'll add Fred Fulton and Kid Norfolk
    Edit: I'll add Joe Choynski, and Jake Kilrain
    Edit: Added Joe Goddard, Jack Root, George Gardner, Gunboat Smith, Battling Jim Johnson, and Jim Coffey
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2018
    BitPlayerVesti, Sep 23, 2018
    BitPlayerVesti, Sep 23, 2018
    #1
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  2. BitPlayerVesti

    BitPlayerVesti Boxing Drunkie Full Member

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    So something like:
    1. Jack Johnson
    2. James J Jeffries
    3. Jack Dempsey
    4. John L Sullivan
    5. Peter Jackson
    6. Bob Fitzsimmons
    7. Sam Langford
    8. Harry Wills
    9. Gene Tunney
    10. James J Corbett
    11. Joe Jeanette
    12. Sam McVea
    13. Jess Willard
    14. George Godfrey
    15. Tom Sharkey
    16. Gus Ruhlin
    17. Denver Ed Martin
    18. Tommy Burns
    19. Peter Maher
    20. Joe Goddard
    21. Jeff Clark
    22. Frank Slavin
    23. Harry Greb
    24. Billy Miske
    25. Tommy Gibbons
    26. Charlie Mitchell
    27. Fred Fulton
    28. Luther McCarty
    29. Joe Choynski
    30. Kid McCoy
    31. Jake Kilrain
    32. George Gardner
    33. Kid Norfolk
    34. Gunboat Smith
    35. Frank Moran
    36. Philidephia Jack O'Brien
    37. Marvin Hart
    38. Jack Root
    39. Jim Coffey
    40. Frank Childs
    41. Jack Burke
    42. Fireman Jim Flynn
    43. Dommick McCaffery
    44. Battling Jim Johnson
    But I'm very open to additions (there's probably some I've overlooked), and if I see a good enough argument, I'll be happy to change things about.
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2018
    BitPlayerVesti, Sep 23, 2018
    BitPlayerVesti, Sep 23, 2018
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  3. Seamus

    Seamus Proud Kulak Full Member

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    hmmm... not a single Dempsey victim on the list outside of old Willard.
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2018
    Seamus, Sep 23, 2018
    Seamus, Sep 23, 2018
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  4. The Undefeated Lachbuster

    The Undefeated Lachbuster On the Italian agenda Full Member

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    Controversial (and probably bias) opinion, but i think Tommy Burns would beat James Corbett in his prime
     
    The Undefeated Lachbuster, Sep 23, 2018
    The Undefeated Lachbuster, Sep 23, 2018
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  5. BitPlayerVesti

    BitPlayerVesti Boxing Drunkie Full Member

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    Willard and Fireman Jim Flynn are, I agree though his resume is weak. There is an argument to place him lower, though maybe I've overlooked some of his opponents, as I'm more familar with the earlier eras.

    Jack Sharkey would rank, probably between Corbett and Willard, but I think he should be considered later.

    Maybe Miske, Gibbons and Greb should be added?
     
    BitPlayerVesti, Sep 23, 2018
    BitPlayerVesti, Sep 23, 2018
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  6. Manos de mierda

    Manos de mierda New Member Full Member

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    Maybe Fred Fulton would deserve a mention too?
     
    Manos de mierda, Sep 23, 2018
    Manos de mierda, Sep 23, 2018
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  7. Manos de mierda

    Manos de mierda New Member Full Member

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    What about Kid Norfolk? Just throwing some names around.
     
    Manos de mierda, Sep 23, 2018
    Manos de mierda, Sep 23, 2018
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  8. BitPlayerVesti

    BitPlayerVesti Boxing Drunkie Full Member

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    Where would you rank them?
     
    BitPlayerVesti, Sep 23, 2018
    BitPlayerVesti, Sep 23, 2018
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  9. Manos de mierda

    Manos de mierda New Member Full Member

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    My knowledge of the era isn't nearly comprehensive enough to attempt ranking them.
    Fulton was considered the main threat to Willard's belt until he ran into Dempsey. He was a very hard right hand puncher who was said to have used his jab well in imposing his size advantage, but was found out to be a bit of a "glass cannon". I read somewhere that Dempsey accused him of lacking heart.
    All in all, I think a ranking in the upper half of the contenders based on a pretty good record and long standing as a top competitor seems warranted, but I would have to read up on some of the other names on your list to make sure.

    I don't know much about the Kid but from what I've heard on this board he seemed to be quite a threat to a lot of the top heavyweights in his time. He also looks strong in the footage against Big Bill Tate.
     
    Manos de mierda, Sep 23, 2018
    Manos de mierda, Sep 23, 2018
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  10. BitPlayerVesti

    BitPlayerVesti Boxing Drunkie Full Member

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    I'll chuck them in. I'll place them somewhere lower down based on their record, I've heard of them before but I don't know a ton about them.

    Honestly I think the actual order is more important higher up, but if someone can make a good argument I'll swap them about
     
    BitPlayerVesti, Sep 23, 2018
    BitPlayerVesti, Sep 23, 2018
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  11. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    Sullivan, Jeffries, Johnson, and Dempsey are the four standouts in chronological order.

    The best of the rest is probably Bob Fitzsimmons incredibly!
     
    janitor, Sep 23, 2018
    janitor, Sep 23, 2018
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  12. BitPlayerVesti

    BitPlayerVesti Boxing Drunkie Full Member

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    What is your reasoning for Bob Fitzsimmons ahead of Peter Jackson as heavyweights?

    My gut reaction was Peter Jackson ahead, thinking it over, I might swap them over, but I'm not sure.
     
    BitPlayerVesti, Sep 23, 2018
    BitPlayerVesti, Sep 23, 2018
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  13. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    Circumstantial evidence suggests Jackson to have been better head to head, but Fitzsimmons body of work is more impressive.

    He basically seems to have knocked out every top heavyweight that he was contemporaneous with except Jeffries.

    I suspect that if he had weighed 195lbs, nobody would dispute who the best heavyweight between Sullivan and Jeffries was!
     
    janitor, Sep 23, 2018
    janitor, Sep 23, 2018
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  14. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    group 1 ( all hall of fame )

    Jeffries
    Dempsey
    Jackson
    Johnson
    Tunney
    Fitzsimmons
    Corbett
    Langford
    Wills
    T. Sharkey

    Group 2 ( Most in the hall of fame, few champions )

    Sullivan
    Willard
    Jeannette
    McVey
    Godfrey
    McCoy
    Ruhlin
    McCarty ( looked like a force, died young at age 21 )
    Slavin
    Burns
    Choynski


    Group 3 ( A mix of top contender types, some smaller, just 1 champions )

    Hart
    O'Brien
    Martin
    Miske
    Greb
    Gibbons
    Maher
    Fulton
    Moran
    Clarke
    Childs
    Mitchell
    Flynn
    Burke
    McCaffery


    Something like that.
     
    Mendoza, Sep 23, 2018
    Mendoza, Sep 23, 2018
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  15. BitPlayerVesti

    BitPlayerVesti Boxing Drunkie Full Member

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    I've heard they fought exhibitions, the only one listed on CBZ is in 1896, and I've never found an account though.

    I guess you could argue Fitzsimmons was better against Corbett. Jackson also stopped Maher in 3, whereas Fitz managed it in 1, (other than the first one where he had a hand injury) but I think really you can't split KOs that quick. Fitz probably fought a better version of Maher. An account of Maher Vs Jackson would be interesting, but I never found one.

    Resume wise, I think Fitz is stronger overall, but I think Jackson maybe edges it a bit at Heavyweight, hard to say.
     
    BitPlayerVesti, Sep 23, 2018
    BitPlayerVesti, Sep 23, 2018
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