Ranking the Heavyweights: Sullivan to Tunney

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by BitPlayerVesti, Sep 23, 2018.


  1. BitPlayerVesti

    BitPlayerVesti Boxing Drunkie Full Member

    8,584
    11,099
    Oct 28, 2017
    Should probably include him
     
  2. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

    71,593
    27,264
    Feb 15, 2006
    Jim Corbett (admittedly not the most reliable observer) described it as "like a master giving a pupil a lesson."

    Comparing their resumes is difficult, because they are not exactly contemporaneous at heavyweight, they just have significant overlap.

    Fitz might benefit from there being more surviving information on his opponents, but his resume still looks a bit tidier.
     
    BitPlayerVesti likes this.
  3. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

    55,255
    10,354
    Jun 29, 2007

    Jackson won early in 3 rounds. Its a shame Jackson never got his chance vs Sullivan, he was a well-liked fellow and would have been an excellent first black American lineal champion. I say this because he was the Brittish empire champion, a significant distinction of the times.

    The premier referee of the time, Geroge Siler who wrote a must-read book Inside Facts of Pugilism, said Jackson was better than Johnson by long odds. And he was fond of Johnson.

    Fitz has an incredible resume. If not for Jeffries, he could have cleaned up.
     
  4. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

    55,255
    10,354
    Jun 29, 2007
    I'd put him in my group three
     
  5. mattdonnellon

    mattdonnellon Boxing Junkie Full Member

    8,624
    1,891
    Dec 2, 2006
    Maher was effectively an amateur when Jackson visited Ireland and attempted to last four rounds for a sum. He retired at the end of the second, no knockdowns.
     
    BitPlayerVesti likes this.
  6. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

    71,593
    27,264
    Feb 15, 2006
    When you cut through the corrupt officiating and police intervention, it seems that he stopped:

    Peter Maher twice

    Joe Choynski once

    Tom Sharkey twice

    Jim Corbett once

    Gus Ruhlin once

    It is also worth noting that he stopped Sharkey and Ruhlin within a month of each other, when they were regarded as the two up and coming contenders.

    He basically only had one big problem, and it was called Jim Jeffries!
     
    Mendoza and BitPlayerVesti like this.
  7. BitPlayerVesti

    BitPlayerVesti Boxing Drunkie Full Member

    8,584
    11,099
    Oct 28, 2017
    I'd consider Stribling post Tunney.

    I don't really think Firpo and Carpentier stand out enough as contenders.

    Firpo is generally considered a pretty poor defence, and while I think it is a bit overstated, he was nothing special, for contenders I mostly just mean the ones that really stand out, generally being at the top for several years.

    I think Carpentier was a decent fighter, but wasn't really accomplished enough as a heavyweight. I'll maybe add him though, depending on who else I add. He's not far off inclusion.
     
  8. mattdonnellon

    mattdonnellon Boxing Junkie Full Member

    8,624
    1,891
    Dec 2, 2006
    Two lists compiled during Dempsey's reign;
    The all-time list: No. 1, Dempsey; No. 2, Fitzsimmons; No. 3, Jeffries; No. 4, Jack Johnson; No. 5, Sullivan; No. 6, Peter Jackson; No. 7, Corbett; No. 8, McCoy; No. 9, Langford; No. 10, Peter Maher; No. 12, Sharkey; No. 13, Gus Ruhlin; No. 14, Joe Choynski; No. 15, Joe Jeannette; No. 16, Luther McCarthy; No. 17, Jess Willard; No. 18, Jack Dillon; No. 19, Sam McVey; No. 20, Tommy Burns.


    Note the All American team of 40 years plus: No. 1, James J. Jeffries; No. 2, John L. Sullivan; No. 3, J. Art Johnson; No. 4, Jack Dempsey; No. 5, Bob Fitzsimmons; No. 6, Peter Jackson; No. 7, Jess Willard; No. 8, Frank Paddy Slavin; No. 9, Fred Fulton; No. 10, Gus Ruhlin; No. 11, Peter Maher; No. 12, Tom Sharkey; No. 13, Sam Langford; No. 14, Luther McCarthy; No. 15, Jim Corbett; No. 16, Charley Mitchell; No. 17, Joe Choynski; No. 18, Joe Goddard; No. 19, Sam McVey; No. 20, Joe Jeannette.
     
    BitPlayerVesti and janitor like this.
  9. mattdonnellon

    mattdonnellon Boxing Junkie Full Member

    8,624
    1,891
    Dec 2, 2006
    Regarding the Jackson-Maher contest "The date was December 24th, 1889, the venue a packed Leinster Hall, the prize a purse of twenty sovereigns to stay four rounds, and the opponent one Peter Jackson! Jackson, a colored West Indian by way of Australia was at that point in time bang at his peak and probably the best fighter on the planet, Sullivan included. Indeed the famous ‘Boston Strong Boy’ had invoked the color bar with precisely the intention of avoiding the ‘Black Prince’.

    This bout gave us what was the first hint of the unpredictability and lack of condition that was to dog Peter’s career. For some unknown reason Maher turned up out of condition and gave a listless performance in his quest for the twenty sovereigns offered for four rounds under Queensberry rules as stated by “Parson” Davies, Jackson’s manager.

    A large crowd was attracted for the contest and we let The Freeman’s Journal, Dublin (great name for a newspaper, that!) of December 26th take up the story. “Maher is a well built young fellow with good arms, which afford him a long reach, and an effective style, but did not appear from the start to be at all at home, and kept as far away from Jackson as he could, taking particular care to guard for body blows…in the first round the fighting was of a very light description. In the second round Jackson was evidently in earnest, and Maher seemed fully conscious of the fact, and driven to the ropes he put down his hands, but the black boxer did not take any advantage of him. When time was called Maher went into Jackson’s corner, shook hands with him, and left the ring, when the performance terminated”.
    Maher had one professional fight at that time, a win over John Seenan for the Irish middleweight title.
     
    BitPlayerVesti likes this.
  10. BitPlayerVesti

    BitPlayerVesti Boxing Drunkie Full Member

    8,584
    11,099
    Oct 28, 2017
    What's your own opinion?

    (even just a top 10, or major changes on the list so far)
     
  11. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

    97,745
    29,125
    Jun 2, 2006
    Johnson
    Dempsey
    Fitzsimmons
    Tunney
    Jeffries
    Corbett
    Sullivan
    Burns
    Willard
    Hart

    Langford
    Jackson
    Jeannette
    McVey
    Wills
    Godfrey
    Martin
    Childs
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2018
    BitPlayerVesti likes this.
  12. mattdonnellon

    mattdonnellon Boxing Junkie Full Member

    8,624
    1,891
    Dec 2, 2006
    no wonder you are called McVey!
     
    mcvey likes this.
  13. mattdonnellon

    mattdonnellon Boxing Junkie Full Member

    8,624
    1,891
    Dec 2, 2006
    Joe Goddard is a big miss, drew with Jackson, beat Maher and Choynski, at his peak a formidable fighter. Gunboat and Jack Root were credible contenders, Jim Coffey and George Gardiner perhaps.
     
    Seamus and BitPlayerVesti like this.
  14. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

    55,255
    10,354
    Jun 29, 2007
    The best thing about the ALL American team was the author saw them ALL from Sullivan to Fulton.
     
  15. robert ungurean

    robert ungurean Богдан Philadelphia Full Member

    16,281
    15,349
    Jun 9, 2007
    I've always read although a draw Choynski who scored the only knock down got the better of this.
    Choynski also went on to claim Fitz was saved by police interference?