Wills tore fulton a new rectum, and easily beat firpo at age 35. Wills was in a different class than those two.
two can play this game. Sam Langford(Whom Dempsey ducked in 1917. Not to mention Harry beat Sam in 1914 when Sam was still very dangerous), Joe Jeanette(whom Dempsey ran out of the ring against in 1918) and Sam McVea. All very good names that Dempsey never fought on his way up like Wills did.
Dempsey's then manager John The Barber Reisler wanted Dempsey to fight Langford in the beginning of 1915, not 1917. Dempsey was between 160-168lbs at the time, he was also 19 years old .At the time Reisler proposed that Dempsey fight Frank Moran, or GunBoat Smith, Dempsey realising he was being thrown to the wolves refused , Reisler then pressured him into a fight with experienced John Lester Johnson , who broke his ribs . ps Fulton stopped Langford in 1917. Wills beat Jeannette when Jeannette was 40 years old. One of the McVey "wins" credited to Wills was a NWS , the boxing commission ruled it a draw McVey had dropped Wills . In another "win" McVey claimed a foul ,[something Wills was known for,] and refused to continue. In their early fights McVey won. Dempsey did not "run out of the ring ,"against Jeannette he was preparing to box an unknown in a charity sparring exhibition, when at the last moment Jeannette stepped forward and challenged him, Dempsey had donated his services free and was not in training at the time . Why should he meet Jeannette? Harry Wills was offered $5000 to spar for ten days with Dempsey when Dempsey was preparing to face Willard he turned it down. It would have been a great opportunity to show he was the deserving challenger to the winner of the Willard V Dempsey fight and would have been both in public and filmed as was Dempsey's workouts with Tate .Wills said NO SALE. Seems this is one game you're not too good at Suzie.
The funny thing about your stories are they are stories ... no factual basis. Dempsey was no bigger or smaller than Lester Johnson when they fought ... all the talk of " the big negro " is a joke ... the man was under 175 himself when they battled .. Dempsey not only refused to fight Langford in 1916, when he was 21 not 19, but again why bother with the details? He refused to fight him right up until 1920. Now I can't say I blame him but many other fighters wold have jumped to have that opportunity at 21 while many other black fighters would have had no choice. You claim Wills was dismissed from Johnson as a sparring partner for lack of effort. NEVER , EVER heard that account from anyone but you ... what is your source ? There is no doubt that Dempsey ran out of the ring in 1918 at Madison Square Garden at a United War Work Fund event where he was scheduled to fight Joe Bonds .. Bonds was a no show and Jennette , 40 years old, showed up to take advantage of the opportunity .. This was 1918, right after Dempsey, 23, had destroyed Fulton. Not only did Dempsey/Kearns refuse to fight him, he walked out of the ring to hysterical booing by the crowd. So your saying he was in shape for Bonds but not a forty year old Jennette ? Here's the facts: 1. Dempsey is the only heavyweight champion in history that ducked his number one contender for his entire reign. He did it in spite of endless harsh criticism and ridicule in national newspapers for years. Small footnote buried in history. 2. You refused to specify what fight film you base Dempsey's greatness on ... 3. Wills fought much better, tougher competition than Dempsey did. 4. Few knew Wills skills better than Kearns who managed Wills for a while and he was not letting Dempsey anywhere near him. 5. Dempsey himself wrote that he was afraid to fight Langford and that he doubted he could ever beat him. My point is not to knock Dempsey. I love much about him, his actual career and his legend as much as the next guy ... I simply set the record straight against revisionists and nut huggers who glamorize what wasn't and glaze over history. To me, in hard fact, Dempsey is a huge unknown. We do not know how great he might have been because he was highly inactive, protected and covered up by the escape clauses that existed in an earlier era, an exceptional manager and promoter who wanted zero shot at risking their meal ticket. ANyone who is a regular here knows I'm also critical about Marciano for building his legacy against older fighters but to Rocky's credit he fought everyone around and even his opposition was still pretty damn dangerous ... to me Dempsey's was handpicked and that is a huge asterisk on his record. In addition, the bouts that told the most about him and what could have been were his last when he battled courageously , far past his own best, against prime Sharkey and Tunney. Dempsey may have been the most gifted figher under 200 pounds that ever lived but we will never know because he was never fully developed and never full tested. I think deep down he knew it, like he knew he dodged the draft and it was a huge factor to his credit in crafting his humble persona in all the years following his ring career.
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Langford stated later....Dempsey is the greatest hwt I have ever seen. All the trainers and writers of the time say Dempsey was an enormous talent. The best. You cannot ignore eye witness expert opinion and embrace poor quality silent film era film.
Well you stopped short of calling me a liar, just. I've never mentioned Johnson's size or weight. In his book" Jack Dempsey " Randy Roberts says Dempsey weighed 160lbs for his fight with Andre Anderson in 1916. Since Dempsey was born on the 24th of June 1895 and Reisler proposed he fight Langford in the spring of 1915 , that would make him 19. I added 8lbs for the 6months that passed between the fights, I think that is adequate. If you have any evidence that Dempsey refused to fight Langford in later years please produce it ,not that it would mean he was afraid of him.. Dempsey praised Langford , he also praised Jeffries and Corbett he was reluctant to knock anyone, but he did say in print that he thought he would have kod Wills, if you give credence to what he said about Langford ,you must do the same regarding Wills. Langford himself called Dempsey the greatest fighter he ever saw and predicted he would beat Wills if they met. Its easily verifiable ,no stories from me, but a lot of smoke and mirrors, along with speculation from you. Dempsey was due to spar with Bonds for free, Jeannette tried to induce Dempsey to fight him instead , Kearns very sensibly told Jeannette to **** off.Jeannette was 39 btw. The source for Wills being sacked by Johnson is Johnson himself ,he said "Wills proved wholly unable to stand the pace" its in his autobiography. Wills opposition during Dempsey's reign is decidedly underwhelming he basically sat on his butt fighting second raters , past prime oldies, and recycled Dempsey ko victims. Your statement that few knew Wills talents better than Kearns is supposition on your part not proof . You have let your resentment of Wills not getting a title shot cloud your judgement imo . All this talk of Dempsey apologists ,, nut huggers is wearing , show me one post I have ever made that excuses Dempsey not fighting Wills, many many times I have said Wills deserved his shot and should have received it. Like the other members of your trio, Power Puncher, and Klompton you have resorted to personal insults . End of.
Dammit, you left me out again, and I'm the guy who exposed your father as having fornicated with ostriches on page three of the Langford vs Jeffries thread back at the end of October 2011! [Jeez, as soon as I'm deprived of my jackal headed avatar, you forget all about me.:sad2What do I have to do to be insulting instead of laughed at or ignored?:conf]
Spot on. I agree totally, and after much thought on the matter of the years, have concluded it is the only rational and objective appraisal of his career.
Dempsey wasnt managed by Reisler in the spring of 1915. Reisler took over his contract when he came to New York in the summer of 1916, over a year after you claim Reisler tried to match him with Langford. Reisler didnt try to match him with Langford until later in the summer, which further throws off your math. It makes no difference what Randy Roberts said in his book. Dempsey weighed 185 for Kenny and 181 for Johnson. By comparison he weighed 185 for Levinsky, Miske, and Morris, and weighed 187 for Willard.
Here is a little background to the Jeanette story which illustrates just how protective Dempsey was being of his status as contender: In early 1918 Leo P. Flynn challenged Dempsey to fight Kid Norfolk. Kearns agreed then backed out. As 1918 wore on and Dempsey ran up his knockout list he began to gain recognition as a possible contender and rival for Willards championship. In July 1918 Dempsey caused a sensation when he was matched with Fred Fulton and stopped him before the first bell had barely even quit ringing. Dempsey was now firmly considered Willards best rival. In August of 1918 Leo P. Flynn published this letter in the New York Tribune as Dempsey was preparing to take on his sparring partner Clay Turner in an exhibition match for the war effort: Sporting Editor: Just a line on behalf of my "Black Thunderbolt" Kid Norfolk, the conquerer of Billy Miske (referee's decision), and a fair proposition to Jack Dempsey, the supposed man-killer. Kid Norfolk, who only weighed 170 pounds in fighting condition, has made Dempsey run out no less than ten times since last February, and I have all of Jack Kearns's letters to prove that he agreed to fight. Now, here is our proposition to Dempsey: Norfolk will give him $1,000 in Liberty bonds or the same in war stamps and will go to any soldiers' camp in the USA and box him 20 rounds to a decision for the benefit of the soldiers, and will further bet Dempsey $2,500 in real money on the outcome of the battle. If this is not satisfactory and his patriotic ballyhoo about wanting to do something for the boys, black and white, who are going over to risk their lives in France is all the bunk, then I will box him ten or twelve rounds to a decision and give him $1,000 worth of war stamps or a liberty bond for $1,000, and will also bet him the $2,500 on the outcome of the battle. He cannot hide behind the old color line dodge for two good reasons. First of all, they do not draw the color line in the United States army, where there is really great fighting to be done, and second, because he has boxed John Lester Johnson (colored), proving secondly that he will not draw the color line if the set-ups are soft enough. Yours Truly, Leo P. Flynn Manager of Kid Norfolk Dempsey then drew the color line... A week after Flynn's letter the exhibition bout took place. A day or two before the bout Dempsey's opponent was changed from Clay Turner to Battling Levinsky. This was advertised in the papers ahead of time. Dempsey showed up and refused to box Levinsky for any longer than three rounds (all exhibitions on the card were scheduled to be 4 rounds) Dempsey stated that he was unaware he was expected to face Levinsky and that he thought Turner would be his opponent. The management insisted that Dempsey box four rounds. Dempsey then changed his story and said he was sick and could not box Levinsky four rounds. The management stuck to their guns and Dempsey refused to box which received heavy boos. Near the end of the program, after Levinsky had faced Miske for four rounds instead. Dempsey then stated he was willing to box four rounds if he could face his sparring partner, Clay Turner, who was scheduled to go four rounds with Greb. Dempsey boxed the four rounds which left the New York Times to state: "Dempsey's illness wasnt as severe as was first announced." In November of 1918 Dempsey was scheduled to appear in another exhibition bout in New York. Joe Jeanette had called Dempsey out and challenged him for the exhibition. Dempsey refused stating that it would "set a precedent" (effectively he drew the color line). This received some criticism in the press. On the night of the exhibition Dempsey climbed into the ring and Joe Jeanette followed, once again challenging him. Dempsey refused. The audience booed. Some booed Dempsey and others booed Jeanette, who they felt had ambushed Dempsey. Most reasoned that Jeanette was well past his prime and there should be no problem with Dempsey exhibiting against him for charity. Things got heated and several more black fighters climbed into the ring. Dempsey refused to fight anyone but Joe Bonds. Bonds was called for and refused to fight because of the fiasco.
."You wont have to come looking for me, I''m gonna make you a special project of mine". No Country For Old Men
