To be fair, how does Johnson look vs Moran at a similar age? What if there were only two films on Johnson. Moran and Willard. Would you similarly downgrade him?
Firpo also floored dempsey 2 times, knocked him out of the ring, dempsey had to be saved by a typewriter. Dempsey clearly struggled with Firpo. FIrpo had Wills in no kind of danger at all. 2ndly, Dempsey fought Firpo when he was smack in the middle of his prime. Wills fought firpo when he was past his prime, at age 36. Wills still knocked down and easily beat firpo.
I disagree but since you are using film as a reference I'd love to see the filmed Dempsey performance you use when you gage him as an all time great.
Film condition of the wills Firpo bout is very good.....better than any of the filmed bouts of Dempsey I have seen.
Number one, not true. Number true , irrelevant ... I'm still waiting for all the Dempey guys who claim he was the greatest heavyweight of the first half of the 20th century to tell me what fight they base it upon that we have filmed to see ... there are enough ...
Dempsey's performance over Firpo is much better than Wills performance with Firpo. KO 2 or UD? There is no debate here. And the claim that Dempsey fell on a typewriter is false.
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Number one..yes it is true unless you have better copies of the films currently available on the Internet. The best film of Dempsey in terms of film quality would be the second Tunney bout. That's past prime Dempsey but you can see an example of his short combinations in the 7th round. Second best is his bout with Willard but most of the bout is filmed at relatively long range. Here you see Dempsey feinting to set up the initial kd blow and that initial kd blow Dempsey keenly switches from body to head...finishing off with that left hook some still think of as the hardest punch ever thrown. Although the film is silent movie quality...so very poor in terms of judging fluidity of movement you see examples of Dempsey weaving under Willards guard and firing short combinations to the head and body...doubling up multiple short hooks alternating to the body and head. Watch one of the last kd of Willard...Dempsey who was going all out with both hands to ko Willard shortens his punches here....left hook...right cross thrown tightly followed by an inside short uppercut and a volley of blows to the head and body put Willard down again. There are times where the camera is up close almost above the action....here you see much clearer Dempseys weaving making Willard miss and then countering with both hands. The Firpo bout is poor quality but all through the bout you see Dempsey land short 6 inch type punches with both hands switching from body to head. Dempsey deftly torques his body to the left and right in close to gain leverage knocking Firpo down again and again with body blows sunk deep into his belly. Again the silent movie nature of the film causes Dempseys fluidity to be lost but you can see glimpses of this especially the next to last kd of Firpo...Firpo retreats as Dempsey weaves towards him...dempsey throws a shoulder feint which for a second freezes Firpo....as quick as that Dempsey throws two very short blows...his fav combination and one Fleischer and Arcel revered to as the most devastating in boxing history....short 6 inch right to the body followed by a short 6 inch left hook to the jaw. Anyway I have been watching Dempseys bouts since 1972. Initially via 8 mm Castle films sold via the mail on the back pages of all boxing magazines at that time up to today's YouTube videos. It would be great if someone would restore and digitally enhance these films. The skills of Dempsey are self evident but you need to spend many hours watching for details because quality is poor. In many ways like watching the keystone cops or Chaplin.
Firpo had put on 8lbs of fat when he fought Wills and was 30 years old himself. Against Dempsey , Firpo was down 7 times inside 2 rounds Wills handled Firpo no better than Charley Weinert did in Firpo's next fight Weinert won at least 10 rds ,and some credited him with a shutout. Firpo shook Wills a couple of times its in the fight reports. Wills initiated all the clinching ,was warned for hitting and holding, threw kidney punches ,and was warned for fouling by the referee.
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Well....back in the early 70s on NY tv there was a tv special looking at old fight films of past great hwt champions. I was still living in NY at the time so perhaps 71-72 time frame. They finally got to Dempsey and there it was .....they showed his bout with Fulton. It was of the quality of his bout with Carpentier taken from ring level. The major thing I remember is they played the bout over in slow motion highlighting a body blow from Dempsey that put Fulton down. That was years ago at a time when I could not appreciate what I was seeing.....but I saw it!
Great stuff. I wonder what else was show? Supposedly there is Jeffries vs Monroe, as the Mauler himself said he saw the film in the 60's at a private collectors house.
