Rate the quality of Sonny Liston's resume

Bla bla bla, and he lost against a natural 175-pounder and against a guy who was 25 pounds lighter than him.

 

Pardon me, it was Joe Bugner...and still knocked him out inside 3 rounds, and so did Foreman and Buster Mathis.

 

He doesn't need to look fat to be bulked up, Qawi didn't look fat too and so didn't Holyfield.

But Martin prime and actual weight is 175-185, he just bulked up to 200 pounds because he knew who he was fighting against.

I know that it bothers Liston fans, who would probably kill Martin just to delete that KO because even tho there are tons of new excuses, their hero still lost against 175 pounder journeyman in a weak era.

 

You originally said Martin bulked up to199lbs just to fight Liston,when I proved that was wrong, you didnt reply.

Martin spent 75%of his caeer as a heavyweight,the only reason you lie about this is to try and disparage Liston,its ludicrous and pathetic!

 

Bugner never knocked out Wepner,he never even floored him,nor did Foreman,both fights were stopped on cuts.Liston floored Wepner ,Buster Mathis never fought Wepner.

 

They beat Wepner faster than Liston, and so did Duane Bobick and Jerry Judge.

Liston floored him but he took 9 rnds to stop him.

 

So tell me in which previous fight Martin weighted as much as 199 pounds?

He started as LHW, was MW in amateurs, like Toney he just bulked up to fight heavies, he was no bigger man than Bob Foster who was bigger than Martin and still LHW.

Martin was a LHW and average sized one, not a heavyweight who primed to 200 pounds as you claimed.

 

What his manager said is

1--Williams had done plenty of roadwork (which I consider part of training)

2--Williams had not been sparring before Sunday, with the fight on Tuesday

3--Gym work is not mentioned. Not sparring does not automatically mean Williams was not in the gym working out. I don't assume anything from a lack of evidence.

If that floats your boat, okay.

The guy who was there and made the decision to fight Satterfield judged Williams had a good chance. He seems to have been ultra-cautious in matching Williams. So for me the best evidence of Williams' condition is that Viscusi took the fight. Why risk a valuable prospect in a no-hope fight? And the odds were a competitive 7-5.

 

There is a lot here, so there will be more than one reply post

"With all due respect . . . Daniels was never the same after the brutal beating he took from Williams"

???? I just watched fight one on you tube. It is true Daniels was cut. But a brutal beating? He was hurt in the sixth, but not badly enough to go down. The fight was Daniels running and Williams chasing. Williams deservedly got the decision, but it was hardly a brutal beating.
Where would it rate for me as a brutal beating? How many blades of grass are on my lawn? That is how many more brutal beatings I have watched over the decades. Daniels came in the # 6 guy. So this was a worthy win. Daniels' biggest win was still in the future--against Doug Jones.

The second fight? I don't know if it is on you tube, but after sitting through the first one, I am not that motivated to watch it. This is the description on box rec:

AP--"Williams stalked his opponent but was able to land few solid blows because of Daniels' back-treading, wind-milling, type of defense."

Sort of what I saw in the first fight.

Why did Daniels collapse. I think basically because he was moving up into better competition (except of course Ali) starting with Williams and was unable to compete against the likes of Folley, Mildenberger, Bonavena, etc.

"Chuvalo could only manage a majority decision against DeJohn"

I just watched this fight also. What happened was Chuvalo landed a big left hook on DeJohn in the second. It draped the tall DeJohn over the ropes. Chuvalo hit him a couple of more times. DeJohn collapsed and looked like he couldn't beat a ten count. The referee gave DeJohn a ten minute rest period and ordered the round to be scored 5-3 for DeJohn. In the sixth Chuvalo knocked DeJohn down twice. The second time DeJohn was sitting on the lower rope. The referee helped DeJohn up. (I am not kidding) and then gave a standing eight count.

The referee's card had it as a draw at 49-49. Well, if Chuvalo was on the short end of a 5-3 round, he couldn't have more than 48 points under a 5 point must system. And despite being totally dominated and knocked down twice in the sixth, DeJohn ended up with 49 points, indicating the sixth was the only round he lost and by only 5-4. In other words, this ref's math had to be totally off.

Fortunately, everyone else scored the fight accurately. Chuvalo dominated it.

Judge--46-42
Judge--47-42
AP--47-42
UPI--47-40

Note that this is with what should have been a 5-3 round for Chuvalo turned into a 5-3 round for DeJohn, and so a four point swing.

In fairness, Chuvalo was tough and did good body work, but didn't seem able to sustain an attack and impressed me as only a fair puncher. DeJohn managed to last the full ten rounds, which he couldn't do with Daniels. But forget the majority decision argument. And the way DeJohn looked, retiring was a wise move.

*Sorry to go on about this fight, but I wanted to post on it, and recommend watching the 2nd and 6th rounds.

 

You're going to pretend to think that when Viscusi said Williams had done roadwork but no sparring, he meant he'd done roadwork and also tons of training in the gym, just no sparring for some reason.

I mean... sure. When it's a choice between that and admitting you're wrong, what else can you do?

 

@mcvey has basically replied as I would have.

Thanks for saving me that time Mac!

In summary you have run with a steady stream of falsehoods - having to be corrected at every turn.

You’ve only replied with one “Pardon me…” but you owe us so many more.

Leotis Martin was 6’1” perhaps a touch more since he appeared to be a smidge taller than Sonny.

He didn’t appear as if he was carrying undue excess weight at 199 1/2 lbs. He also displayed no signs of lacking any fitness against Liston.

James “Fridge Lights’s On” Toney was 5’9” at best. Same size?

Pardon? Pardon?

 

Leotis Martin was 6ft1 and so was Thomas Hearns, does that make Thomas Hearns a real LHW if he bulked up to LHW limit?
Same goes for Leotis Martin, he can bulk up to 199 and Toney can bulk up to 220 pounds but they are not heavyweights, they never were.

Also Qawi bulked up to fight Foreman who was old but still won against Qawi but I don't call Qawi a heavyweight.

Bob Foster was 6ft 3 with longer reach and taller than Martin, does that makes him a HW?

 

Of course height is just one reference point - natural frame is obviously also a factor - Hearns could and did actually accomodate LHW poundage very well.

Toney was already looking like an overinflated, T-Rex armed basketball at 190 lbs - 9 1/2 lbs shy of Martin’s weight for Liston - with Leotis still looking far more svelte at the heavier weight when he fought Sonny - a weight that Leotis carried in and around for a good while before the Liston fight. A substantive, well carried weight.

Foster was a classic strong bean for his weight at LH - even when contesting at HW (including during his LH reign - which obviously required him to return to the 175 limit to defend - which he did easily) Foster didn’t bust the LH limit by a lot - top weight I can see was 188 lbs - but even when he engaged Ali in 1972, Foster came in at just 180 lbs.

Your analysis is narrow, myopic and highly flawed, and particularly so when it suits your uniformly tainted agenda re Liston.

 

Not true, Hearns was knocked out by Hagler, if he fought Spinks, Qawi or Saad, he would get brutally beaten possibly killed.

His frame was big but his bones were not thick and so wasn't his body mass.

Toney was middleweight, it's normal for him to look a bit chubby at 190 while Martin was LHW, MW weight class is 154-160 pounds, LHW was 165-175.

That's 20 pounds difference, so it is normal for Martin to gain 15-20 pounds more and doesn't look chubby because his weight class is 20 pounds heavier than Toney's, but that doesn't change the fact that Martin was natural LHW.

Martin could bulk to 25 pounds(175-200lbs) like Toney could bulk from 160 pounds to 185 pounds, Martin could be bigger just because he's LHW and Toney was a MW.

Foster was bigger man than Martin, not only size but he started heavier, I still can't call him a HW if he decided to bulk up to 200LBS like Martin did.

I know that it hurts Liston fans that he was knocked out by LHW and not the great one, but just a contender.

 

P . I really can't be arsed to continue with this cabbage ,good luck!