Rate the quality of Sonny Liston's resume

Cleroux has a case for being the the best HW from the 60s to not fight for a belt. In the early 60s especially.

47-6 never stopped only clear losses were to Folley. 6-3 against HW title contenders. He also beat Miteff who might be the 2nd best to not fight for a belt in that era.

 

Nuts, that's like saying James Toney looked okay with over 200 pounds, and Toney and Martin were the same size.
Nope, Leotis was not fit at 199 pounds; he did that only to fight HWs and failed just like Toney.

Liston's prime weight and best weight were 210 and Martin's best weight was 175-180 pounds, still a 30-pound difference in reality when both are fit.

Excuse, Martin killed a man, was not right in his mind, plus he carried an eye injury from a previous fight, so what?

So if Thomas Hearns adds 20 pounds to fight Spinks, he is not bulked up MW but really LHW who matured?
Laughable.

 

Oversized bum whom Jerry Quarry knocked out inside 3 rounds, yeah, good opponents.

You mean this forum is just like SONNY BEATS EVERYONE AND FOR ANY LOSS OR CHEATING THERE ARE EXCUSES, and if you try to prove differently, his fanboy mob group attacks you and insults you when they do not have arguments.

 

Which fights when he was over 180lbs did Martin look fat /overweight in? Martin had 12 fights at or under 180bs and 24at 190lbs of over.He was a heavyweight when he fought Liston and had been for 5 and a half years.

 

No he was 20lbs and Liston was fighting with a broken jaw.

 

Quarry never fought Wepner.

 

Bla bla bla, and he lost against a natural 175-pounder and against a guy who was 25 pounds lighter than him.

 

Pardon me, it was Joe Bugner...and still knocked him out inside 3 rounds, and so did Foreman and Buster Mathis.

 

He doesn't need to look fat to be bulked up, Qawi didn't look fat too and so didn't Holyfield.

But Martin prime and actual weight is 175-185, he just bulked up to 200 pounds because he knew who he was fighting against.

I know that it bothers Liston fans, who would probably kill Martin just to delete that KO because even tho there are tons of new excuses, their hero still lost against 175 pounder journeyman in a weak era.

 

You originally said Martin bulked up to199lbs just to fight Liston,when I proved that was wrong, you didnt reply.

Martin spent 75%of his caeer as a heavyweight,the only reason you lie about this is to try and disparage Liston,its ludicrous and pathetic!

 

Bugner never knocked out Wepner,he never even floored him,nor did Foreman,both fights were stopped on cuts.Liston floored Wepner ,Buster Mathis never fought Wepner.

 

They beat Wepner faster than Liston, and so did Duane Bobick and Jerry Judge.

Liston floored him but he took 9 rnds to stop him.

 

So tell me in which previous fight Martin weighted as much as 199 pounds?

He started as LHW, was MW in amateurs, like Toney he just bulked up to fight heavies, he was no bigger man than Bob Foster who was bigger than Martin and still LHW.

Martin was a LHW and average sized one, not a heavyweight who primed to 200 pounds as you claimed.

 

What his manager said is

1--Williams had done plenty of roadwork (which I consider part of training)

2--Williams had not been sparring before Sunday, with the fight on Tuesday

3--Gym work is not mentioned. Not sparring does not automatically mean Williams was not in the gym working out. I don't assume anything from a lack of evidence.

If that floats your boat, okay.

The guy who was there and made the decision to fight Satterfield judged Williams had a good chance. He seems to have been ultra-cautious in matching Williams. So for me the best evidence of Williams' condition is that Viscusi took the fight. Why risk a valuable prospect in a no-hope fight? And the odds were a competitive 7-5.

 

There is a lot here, so there will be more than one reply post

"With all due respect . . . Daniels was never the same after the brutal beating he took from Williams"

???? I just watched fight one on you tube. It is true Daniels was cut. But a brutal beating? He was hurt in the sixth, but not badly enough to go down. The fight was Daniels running and Williams chasing. Williams deservedly got the decision, but it was hardly a brutal beating.
Where would it rate for me as a brutal beating? How many blades of grass are on my lawn? That is how many more brutal beatings I have watched over the decades. Daniels came in the # 6 guy. So this was a worthy win. Daniels' biggest win was still in the future--against Doug Jones.

The second fight? I don't know if it is on you tube, but after sitting through the first one, I am not that motivated to watch it. This is the description on box rec:

AP--"Williams stalked his opponent but was able to land few solid blows because of Daniels' back-treading, wind-milling, type of defense."

Sort of what I saw in the first fight.

Why did Daniels collapse. I think basically because he was moving up into better competition (except of course Ali) starting with Williams and was unable to compete against the likes of Folley, Mildenberger, Bonavena, etc.

"Chuvalo could only manage a majority decision against DeJohn"

I just watched this fight also. What happened was Chuvalo landed a big left hook on DeJohn in the second. It draped the tall DeJohn over the ropes. Chuvalo hit him a couple of more times. DeJohn collapsed and looked like he couldn't beat a ten count. The referee gave DeJohn a ten minute rest period and ordered the round to be scored 5-3 for DeJohn. In the sixth Chuvalo knocked DeJohn down twice. The second time DeJohn was sitting on the lower rope. The referee helped DeJohn up. (I am not kidding) and then gave a standing eight count.

The referee's card had it as a draw at 49-49. Well, if Chuvalo was on the short end of a 5-3 round, he couldn't have more than 48 points under a 5 point must system. And despite being totally dominated and knocked down twice in the sixth, DeJohn ended up with 49 points, indicating the sixth was the only round he lost and by only 5-4. In other words, this ref's math had to be totally off.

Fortunately, everyone else scored the fight accurately. Chuvalo dominated it.

Judge--46-42
Judge--47-42
AP--47-42
UPI--47-40

Note that this is with what should have been a 5-3 round for Chuvalo turned into a 5-3 round for DeJohn, and so a four point swing.

In fairness, Chuvalo was tough and did good body work, but didn't seem able to sustain an attack and impressed me as only a fair puncher. DeJohn managed to last the full ten rounds, which he couldn't do with Daniels. But forget the majority decision argument. And the way DeJohn looked, retiring was a wise move.

*Sorry to go on about this fight, but I wanted to post on it, and recommend watching the 2nd and 6th rounds.