Rate the quality of Sonny Liston's resume

You're going to pretend to think that when Viscusi said Williams had done roadwork but no sparring, he meant he'd done roadwork and also tons of training in the gym, just no sparring for some reason.

I mean... sure. When it's a choice between that and admitting you're wrong, what else can you do?

 

@mcvey has basically replied as I would have.

Thanks for saving me that time Mac!

In summary you have run with a steady stream of falsehoods - having to be corrected at every turn.

You’ve only replied with one “Pardon me…” but you owe us so many more.

Leotis Martin was 6’1” perhaps a touch more since he appeared to be a smidge taller than Sonny.

He didn’t appear as if he was carrying undue excess weight at 199 1/2 lbs. He also displayed no signs of lacking any fitness against Liston.

James “Fridge Lights’s On” Toney was 5’9” at best. Same size?

Pardon? Pardon?

 

Leotis Martin was 6ft1 and so was Thomas Hearns, does that make Thomas Hearns a real LHW if he bulked up to LHW limit?
Same goes for Leotis Martin, he can bulk up to 199 and Toney can bulk up to 220 pounds but they are not heavyweights, they never were.

Also Qawi bulked up to fight Foreman who was old but still won against Qawi but I don't call Qawi a heavyweight.

Bob Foster was 6ft 3 with longer reach and taller than Martin, does that makes him a HW?

 

Of course height is just one reference point - natural frame is obviously also a factor - Hearns could and did actually accomodate LHW poundage very well.

Toney was already looking like an overinflated, T-Rex armed basketball at 190 lbs - 9 1/2 lbs shy of Martin’s weight for Liston - with Leotis still looking far more svelte at the heavier weight when he fought Sonny - a weight that Leotis carried in and around for a good while before the Liston fight. A substantive, well carried weight.

Foster was a classic strong bean for his weight at LH - even when contesting at HW (including during his LH reign - which obviously required him to return to the 175 limit to defend - which he did easily) Foster didn’t bust the LH limit by a lot - top weight I can see was 188 lbs - but even when he engaged Ali in 1972, Foster came in at just 180 lbs.

Your analysis is narrow, myopic and highly flawed, and particularly so when it suits your uniformly tainted agenda re Liston.

 

Not true, Hearns was knocked out by Hagler, if he fought Spinks, Qawi or Saad, he would get brutally beaten possibly killed.

His frame was big but his bones were not thick and so wasn't his body mass.

Toney was middleweight, it's normal for him to look a bit chubby at 190 while Martin was LHW, MW weight class is 154-160 pounds, LHW was 165-175.

That's 20 pounds difference, so it is normal for Martin to gain 15-20 pounds more and doesn't look chubby because his weight class is 20 pounds heavier than Toney's, but that doesn't change the fact that Martin was natural LHW.

Martin could bulk to 25 pounds(175-200lbs) like Toney could bulk from 160 pounds to 185 pounds, Martin could be bigger just because he's LHW and Toney was a MW.

Foster was bigger man than Martin, not only size but he started heavier, I still can't call him a HW if he decided to bulk up to 200LBS like Martin did.

I know that it hurts Liston fans that he was knocked out by LHW and not the great one, but just a contender.

 

P . I really can't be arsed to continue with this cabbage ,good luck!

 

One man is MW and the other is Lhw, both can bulk up one weight class more, but only bulk up, since they are not full sized for that weight class.

You mentioned Toney as fat at 190, but you did not say that he is a MW not a LHW like Martin was.

 

Though I have frequently disagreed with you I have liked your posts,but it seems to me you are reaching a bit here.

How many managers take fights for their charges knowing them not to be in top shape? It would run into hundreds.

Odds on fights are not an infallible indication as to how they will go. Braddock v Baer, Louis v Marciano, Liston V Ali,Honeyghan v Curry,Douglas v Tyson, Holyfield v Tyson etc.

 

@BoxingFan2002 I personally think Leotis Martin was a fair sized opponent, I don’t think he was a natural 175lber but Liston was definitely KO’d by a chubby, overstuffed 190lber when he was old - it’s not so damming, might say a bit about his chin… but it is amusing when people think anyone was ducking Liston when he was fighting guys he outweighed by 15-20lbs like Clark and Martin - Ellis, Quarry, Frazier they’d have all gutted him bad at this point and @klompton2 has posted extensively on the timeline of why those fights didn’t happen unapologetically.

 

"How many managers take fights for their charges knowing them not to be in to shape?"

With a top heavyweight prospect? Sure, trial horses are tossed to the wolves in whatever shape for the money, but guys with potential?

"Odds on fights are not an infallible indication"

Of course not. But they measure what chance a fighter is viewed as having going into any given match. And Williams had relatively short odds.

 

Unless we get info no one knows if or how much gym work Williams was doing. I have no comment except posting the answers to questions I asked the internet.

Do boxers often train in the gym without sparring?

"Boxers often train in the gym without sparring. While sparring is crucial for developing the specific skills and instincts needed for fighting, a significant portion of a boxer's training focuses on other aspects of fitness and technique. These include bag work, pad work, and drills focused on footwork, speed, and agility."

How many times a week does a boxer in training spar?

"A boxer preparing for a fight might spar 2-3 times a week. Some boxers spar less often depending on individual needs."

How many times does a boxer in training work out and spar in a week?

"A boxer in training should ideally work out 4-5 times per week, mixing technical work, sparring, and conditioning. Sparring, specifically, should be done 2-3 times per week while preparing for a fight."

 

Klompton is very interesting on that subject. I mean the subject of Liston turning down an offer to fight Quarry, if my memory serves me well.

 

Chuvalo vs DeJohn---"Hardly a dominant win."

In my judgment, this was not a competitive fight and the draw verdict is the worst scoring I have ever seen, bar none. It was a dominant win.

"DeJohn whipped Cleroux decisively."

Yes.

"DeJohn was completely dismantled by Billy Daniels."

Yes.

"Daniels in turn was thorouthly outclassed by Williams."

Yes.

"If Cleroux and Chuvalo don't have any case for being better than DeJohn, they certainly have no case for being better than Daniels--and definitely not better than Williams."

First. Chuvalo shouldn't be mentioned because he won decisively against DeJohn. It is fair to point out DeJohn managed to last the distance against Chuvalo and did not against Daniels. I saw the Cleroux-DeJohn fight back in the day. Cleroux walked right into a left hook in the third round. He didn't go down, but seemed out of it for several rounds while DeJohn built up a lead. Cleroux rallied late, but it was too little too late.

"no case for being better than Daniels"

In Chuvalo's case, who did better against Jones? Daniels fought Jones on equal terms. Chuvalo KO'd him.

Your argument is the old if A did better against B than C did, A must be better than C. This simply does not follow because styles make fights. Daniels was a mover, which DeJohn couldn't handle. Chuvalo and Cleroux were come forward sluggers who plodded straight in to DeJohn. They fought his fight. This might be true also for Williams, but both Chuvalo and Cleroux had top chins. Arguably better than Williams had. Fights in the early sixties would have been interesting. (of course, both outpointed Williams after the shooting. This clouds the issue with Williams. But no reason to believe that both Cleroux and Chuvalo hadn't also gone back.

As for Daniels, he couldn't even win half his fights. He had nothing like the overall careers of Chuvalo and Cleroux. Extrapolating from one fight to a conclusion is silly. It is like arguing that Joe Rowan was a bigger puncher than Sonny Liston because he KO'd Bert Whitehurst in one round while Liston twice went the full ten rounds with Whitehurst.

 

"Chuvalo should have lost decisively to Miteff in their first fight."

Spectacular double standard rears its head.

Chuvalo was born on September 12, 1937. The first Miteff fight was on June 16, 1958. So Chuvalo was a couple of months younger than Williams was in 1954 against Satterfield. Chuvalo had 16 pro fights and 16 amateur fights. Williams had 40 pro fights. But we must totally dismiss Williams KO by Satterfield while trashing Chuvalo's much better performance against Miteff?

Miteff also had 16 pro fights, but 140 amateur fights. He was rated the #5 contender going in. He had won 15 of 16 with a KO of Holman and a decision over Valdes. (point being that Miteff was rated higher at the time of the fight than Satterifield who was coming in off a loss)

"When he knocked Miteff down in the final round, he should've gained a two point edge on the scorecards--but one judge gave him three points and another gave him four! Even with that absurdly favorable scoring, Chuvalo had fallen so far behind earlier in the fight that it only brought him to a draw."

The issue is a lot cloudier than that. I have not seen the fight and don't know if it was filmed. The description implies that Chuvalo caught Miteff with a big left and knocked him down and Miteff was badly hurt and barely hanging on to the bell.

I recall Nat Fleischer discussing this type of situation. An early knockdown costs points but you came back. A knockdown(s) in the last round which leaves you helpless but you manage to be saved by the bell is viewed by some as costing the fighter any right to a victory.

This is subjective and I can think of cases on both sides. The 1958 Chuvalo-Miteff fight does not stand alone. Jeffries was a mile behind Ruhlin in 1897, but caught him with a left hook in the last thirty seconds and dropped him. Ruhlin barely made it to the bell. It was ruled a draw. Schaaf was ahead of Baer in 1932 when Baer caught him with a right with only a few seconds left. Schaaf was on the floor but saved by the bell. Baer got the decision. On the other side, Cerdan was well ahead of Raadik in 1947, but was dropped three times in the final round. Cerdan got the decision. Same with Ingo against London in 1963.

My bottom line is that the green Chuvalo deserves credit for doing so well, whatever one thinks of how a late knockdown should effect the decision. The young Williams never did anything to match this performance.

As for Miteff losing close in the second fight. Wonderful. Miteff didn't do as well as -- Cleroux who outpointed Chuvalo twice. McMurtry who outpointed Chuvalo. Or Pete Rademacher who had a UD over Chuvalo in Toronto. It is a styles make the fight situation again. Miteff came to Chuvalo. Rademacher pointed out that Chuvalo was real tough if you stood in front of him, but could be beaten easily if you moved.

 

And Ellis