Rate the quality of Sonny Liston's resume

Yes, we are talking about today's standards. The size feteshists who attack Marciano because he never beat a "modern" heavy need to come to terms that Liston never beat a good one, either.

 

You are arguing against yourself, here. If size matters, then Liston's four best wins were 189, 194, 196, and 198.

 

These guys would all fight at Cruiser today, except the ones that are not that good. So now Shkor is as good as Wepner.

Liston's vest wins are 189, 194, 196, and 198. That is all.

 

You are a desperate aren't you?

 

Let's compare the five biggest opponents (by weight) of Marciano and Liston

Marciano

Humphrey Jackson---6' 3.5"--254 lbs (4 wins 2 losses)
James Connolly---6' 5"--213 lbs. (8 wins 5 losses)
Johnny Shkor---6' 5"--220 1/2 lbs. (32 wins 18 losses 2 draws)
Bill Wilson--6' 3.5"--229 1/2 lbs. (41 wins 11 losses 3 draws)
Joe Louis--6' 1.5"--213 3/4 lbs. (66 wins 2 losses)

Liston

Cleveland Williams--6' 3"--215 1/2 lbs. (49 wins 3 losses 1 draw)
Nino Valdes--6' 3"--211 lbs. (47 wins 17 losses 3 draws)
Gerhard Zech--6' 5"--226 lbs. (32 wins 5 losses 1 draw)
Henry Clark--6' 3"--215 lbs. (15 wins 3 losses 2 draws)
Chuck Wepner--6' 5"--228 lbs. (21 wins 5 losses 2 draws)

*Note--Wepner, Zech Williams, and Clark are Liston's four heaviest opponents. The fifth would be Dave Bailey, who weighed 215 and had a record of 15-16-3. I subbed Valdes because he was such a superior scalp, as a former #1 contender.

*Note--Marciano fought his men on the way up. He was about as experienced as a pro as Jackson and Connolly when he defeated them.
Liston fought his biggest opponents for the most part after he was champion, reflecting perhaps that the division was getting bigger.

And to save McVey a post, Liston fought more men above 210 lbs. than Marciano and more men over 200 lbs.

But the top five are comparable in size. Louis and Clark were rated for the fights for Marciano and Liston. I believe Williams was #10 for the first Liston fight. The rest were unrated at the time of the fights. Williams, Valdes, Clark, and Wepner were rated at some point, as were Louis and Skhor. The highest rated fighter at the time of the fights would have been Louis at #2.

 

Uh, no. I am stating the facts. It size matters, then Liston's four best wins are 189, 194, 196, and 198.

The namecalling is beneath you. Others are understanding and liking my comments....if you don't understand, that is on you. but no reason for the insults.

 

You're mocking the early '60s heavyweight era because a 181-pound Harold Johnson beat a top contender — but you’ve defended the resume of Holmes, who lost to a 175-pound light heavyweight moving up.

If Johnson's win makes the era weak, what does Spinks’ win make Holmes’ era look like?

 

Liston beat Williams, 6"2', 210-215lbs, 80" reach and powerful.

I have no interest in the Marciano debate, so rest easy.

 

Williams would have to boil down to cruiser these days...not a "modern heavy."

 

I was very clear.

Michael Spinks didn't go back down to 175 after beating Holmes. He moved up to heavyweight and remained there.

Harold Johnson, all 181 pounds of him, beat Machen (the #2 heavyweight contender) and Johnson went back down to 175 to defend his title numerous times.

Hell, I can't think of any 180 pounders who beat any top heavyweight contenders from the 70s on. Can you? Even Spinks and Jones were in the 190s. They weren't 181.

The gulf is too wide now. It was fairly common place once upon a time. But the days of top light heavys knocking off top heavyweights here and there and moving back down to 175 are long gone.

It's happened like once in the last 50+ years.

 

Liston is a great example of who is better than his own CV. It is good but not great. He had the potential for a much better CV but he also had a poorly managed career and was largely self-harming. As a result a boxer with huge potential is now considered by many to be a flash in the pan and limited to the best which is not true. Liston twice outclassed the reigning lineal champion who still had plenty of gas in the tank. He also had very valuable victories over Williams and Foley which are also some of Clay's best prime victories of the 60's but Foley and Williams were better when they fought Liston and were destroyed. Liston needs to get extra points for the quality of his wins but on paper his CV is probably weaker than AJ's, Young's, Bowe's, Frazier's, Norton's, Tyson's.

 

Wepner was once a rated heavyweight he went into the 15th round with Ali ,Shkor was a journeyman who was kod in1 round in his previous fight.I've asked you to post names of big heavyweights that Marciano beat, as I did for Liston why haven't you done so?
Three of you are determined to make this into a Marciano v Liston thread,so be it!

 

Williams was a lean muscled body beautiful type,why wouldn't he add more muscle to his frame?

Give us ONE example of Marciano facing a prime young heavyweight of Williams size,ability ,and power?

 

So size doesn't matter? This is your position?
Yes?
No?
You are still desperate, but I withdraw the squirrel comment,it wasn't warranted, with you at least.

 

Comparable in size but certainly not in quality Jackson retired after the Marciano fight with a 4-3-0 record.
Connolly has just 1 amatuer fight that I can find ,in it he was ko'd in1 round by----Marciano. this fight was trashed by the media.
Shkor had been ko'd in one round in his previous fight he'd won 2 of his last 11,he had one more fight and retired.
Wilson had lost to Light heavy Nardico in his previous fight he was stopped 11 times.He wa stopped by Marciano on a badly cut eye.
Louis was ranked as you say,but a shell of the great fighter he had been.

Liston's bigger opponents, save possibly the one handed relic of Louis that Marciano faced,were superior to Marciano's,,I don't think there is any doubt about that.
Lincoln
Valdes
DeJohn
Williams x2
Are far better than
Jackson
Wilson
Connolly
Shkor
Experience?
Marciano had18 amateur fights Liston 12
Marciano's fights
No7Jackson 4-2-0
No8 Hardeman 1-5-0
No9 Cardone 0-0-0
No10 Jefferson 2-2-0
No12 Ferron 4-10-0
No13 Pretzie9-5-0
No14Donato 7-10-0
No18 Haft12-6-0 174 3/4lbs
No19 Louthis 23-15-5



LIston's fights
No 6 Summerlin18-1-2
No 7 Summerlin18-2-2
No8 Marshall 7th ranked lhvy
No10 Billy Hunter 10-4-2
No12Whitehurst 24-13-2
No13 Mederos 21-18-3
No 14 Bethea 17-8-2
No18 DeJohn 36-5-1
No19 Williams 47-2-1
Which of these men was fed a long line of sausages and which was meeting ranked and fringe contenders at the same period of his development?