Rate their chins. Marciano, foreman or holmes?

Cobra,

The ability to take a punch is mostly physically, but the psychological part of taking a punch and being in the good physical condition to take one also help. If you're tired, you won't take as good of a punch as if you are fresh. That was my point.

Therefore Foreman's ability to take the punch over 12-15 rounds is not as great as you think because he tended to gas. I think he got up mentally defeated vs Ali. By contrast, Marciano and Holmes were extremely well conditioned 15 round warriors.

I get what you're saying on Young match. IMO George was tired and collapsed in his dressing room. What is your explanation on the Lyle fight? Sure Lyle could punch, but he did not land that much and was close to getting a KO win himself over Foreman. Had the same punch hit Holmes or Marciano, I believe they get up and don't have dead legs, and look much fresher.

Yes, I'm saying Lakusta who was a trial horse type that rocked Foreman pretty bad is something that would not happen to Marciano had Lakusta landed the exact same punch.

When you compare power, you have to also consider what gloves there were using. In Marciano's day the gloves were lighter, thus it was a bit harder to take the punch, had the same fighter been wearing modern gloves, the impact would be a little less.

 

1. That's a fight. Idk what forum you think you are on but here we are discussing boxing. In a fight you are using your own body (the energy in it) to try and beat the other guy any way possible. Foreman wouldn't beat any great fighters by pacing himself like he did in the fights you mentioned. If you haven't noticed he wasn't the best in the skills department and most of the time he didn't need to be. In his comeback when he paced himself he didn't beat one great fighter. But like I said this is about chins and Foreman had a terrific chin, but he was knocked out once and down 3 other times (total of 4 times). Walcott and Moore were bigger punchers and better punchers than Ali and Young. The latter being the more important of the two types.

2. Strawman argument again. I never said size doesn't matter. You're lying...again.

3. Then you're flat out lying or don't understand what you're watching. Marciano made Moore look like a blind old lady in terms of accuracy and had the better of the overwhelming majority of the fight. The scorecards reflect that as well. Marciano looked utterly dominating over Charles, even throwing 100 punches in rd 6.

There isn't a shred of evidence in your favor. Your argument was dead before it even got started.

 

I agree with a lot of your post.

Totally disagree on lyle not landing much. Im sorry but you really dont sound like youve watched the fight if youre even gon a say that. It was one of the most brutal brawls in history. Lyle landed home with his overhand right over foremans lazy pawing jab from the opening bell.

Foreman not being in good condition and becoming a psychologically damaged head case after zaire is nothing new. That only further proves my point: that a foreman who neglected his cardio and roadwork, was inactive, lost his confidence and abandoned his defense STILL displayed tremendous heart and an incredible chin against Lyle, frazier, and young.

He just had a very durable, robust body built for strenth and absorbing punishment and it showed, no homo. He knew it and knew he could get away with abandoning his training. Tyson made the same mistake and paid for it.

Let me see marciano or holmes be inactive for a year, neglect their cardio, lack confidence and then fight lyle, frazier, and young and lets see how good their chins look lol. I highly doubt they put on stellar performances.

As for lakusta, again he was nearly 50. Joe louis had galento. Ali had his embarrassing moments with cooper and wepner. Holmes had snipes. Rocky had lowry. Lewis had mccall. Wladmir had peter. Shall i continue? And none of these men fought well beyond their 40's.

And foreman DIDNT GO DOWN. How do you use a fight where you dont get down despite getting caught off guard as proof you have a bad chin? This is just like people who will try to find anything to make a fighter look bad, like saying golovkin was "exposed" by jacobs because he had a few rough moments, or maidana "destroyed" mayweather.

Had he went down or lost that fight or it haopened in his prime id completely agree with you saying he really got exposed, etc. Theres a lot convenient cherry picking and altering the narrative going on sweeping morrison, cooney, briggs, moore, and holyfield under the rug!

 

1-mike moore was a great fighter. 2 weight class world champ, lineal champ who beat holy and a southpaw with decent power.

Walcott is VERY debatable. Ali has stopped bigger and better fighters than him. Carles absolutely not. This is classic old timers are better rhettoric.

2-you did exactly that bucko

"Size doesn't determine punching power. Plenty of 190-200 lbrs from history hit harder than many of the super heavies in the top 10 today."

Size doesnt determine power...ok. now sit down.

3-it doesnt matter how dominant a fighter is before their face gets sliced open. Vitali was technically landing more punches than lewis but he lost that fight because lewis bloodied his face.

As i said, charles could have won that with a different ref. Believe what you want. Rocky benefitted from a gritier era.

 

1. Michael Moorer was a good fighter definitley not a great fighter and Foreman was losing that fight.
2. Again, you are making things up. I never said Charles had more power. Walcott and Moore however did have more power than Ali. That is evident. Ali never brutally knocked guys out with one punch, unless you count the second Liston fight. Walcott knocked out Charles and knocked Louis and Marciano both down. Something Ali most likely wouldn't be able to. Moore holds the highest ko record in history and knocked out plenty at 175-190. That power just doesn't go away.
3. Yes it absolutely does. If a fighter loses every round then manages to open a cut on the other guys face that doesn't make the fight competitive. Charles did good in the beginning then Marciano got in his groove and took over completely. Idk what fights you are watching or why. How did this fight even get brought up? It has no standing on Marciano's chin. Here you are with the strawman again.

You aren't a boxing fan. You're sitting here and advocating for fights to get stopped prematurely.

You keep saying sit down but yet you keep proving my points. I think its you who needs to sit down.

 

1-an undefeated southpaw 2 weight champ with an 86% ko rate is a better win than a blown up middleweight with ALS, a washed up old ex champ desperate for money, a short almost 40 year old light heavyweight with 19 losses and a guys nearly 40 with 16 losses.

Wtf does foreman losing prior to getting the ko have to do with anything? Rocky was getting utterly dominated before his comeback ko. You accuse me of changing the subject and bringing up irrelevant points yet here you are. All that further proves is how durable foremans chin is--which was kind of the point of the discussion.

2-ali knocked out liston with one shot yes. He was also the only guy to stop foreman and bonavena, both of whom would probably run walcott over like a freight train. He stopped frazier. You are on crack of you think walcott can survive more than a 7 rounds with frazier.

Power doesnt always move up in weight. Again, look at bob foster or the more recent adrien broner. If t did archie should have been destroying heavyweights but he wasnt. Rocky, floyd, and ali himself made short work of him.

3-youre the one who started questioning foremans record genius.

Im not a boxing fan? Lol because i didnt want vitali or rocky to die from blood loss or permanent head trauma? Lol. I could post screenshots of ppvs i used to order for me and my friends to watch on the weekend.

Cooper knocked ali down, ali ripped his face open and stopped him. It didnt matter wtf cooper was doing prior to that, its his fault for not blocking punches and getting hit in the face. What im saying is nothing new: a modern ref would probably stop the charles/rocky fight due to the cut. Whining and insulting me isnt going to change this fact. I never even tried to claim charles was schooling him, just that history could have been very different with a different ref.

 

Im honestly getting tired of people shifting the goal posts, downllaying, using double standards and cherry picking facs. Here are some facts:

-Foreman fought more dangerous punchers than almost any other heavyweight (except perhaps ali amd holyfield) yet hes only been stopped once in a fight where he gassed himself out.

-who were they? Lets take a look at some of these punchers and how they were doing at the time he met them:

-chuvalo: 67% ko rate. Rigged journeuman with loads of experience and a nasty body shot. Had only been stopped once by frazier (due to a previous injury reopening). Chuvalo couldnt hurt foreman, couldnt drop him or even lump him up or buzz him. Foreman brutally pummeled him in 3 against the ropes.

-kirkman 78% ko rate. Had only 1 prior loss (a stoppage due to a cut over the eye against veteran doug jones). Foreman bounced him off the canvas before the ref stopped it.

-frazier 86% ko rate unified champ who had never been stopped. No losses. No explanation needed.

-norton 72% ko rate. Again no explanation needed. He only had 2 losses and 1 stoppage.

-lyle 63% ko rate, only 3 losses and only 1 stoppage to the great ali. despite having 2 years of ring rust and losing his confidence foreman proved he could get off the floor to win a brutal war.

-frazier rematch "frazier was washed up, yada yada yada" but you guys insist "power is the last thing to go" right? Dont shift the goal posts now. He actually did better in this fight than the first one!

-agosto 61% bounced up and down like a yo yo.

No one on this list except lyle managed to drop foreman and none of them stopped him obviously. 46 fights in his first career, faced 7 punchers who all had winning records. He took what they dished out and finished them. Even if we stop right here, can anyone name multiple heavyweights who faced 7 dangerous punchers and won all 7 times without getting stopped?

Second career. Keep in mind foreman is 40+ years old.

-hitz 63% ko rate. Winning record, only 1 prior stoppage.

-fuliangi 83% ko rate. Winning record, 3 previous stoppages

-bert cooper 71% KO rate. Cooper had been knocking guys out silly and later proved he had elite power against holyfield. Trained by frazier, this was still a dangerous fight to take regardless of the benefit of hindsight. At the time he had a winning record and only 4 losses.

-cooney 80% ko rate. Again, very dangerous puncher. He did not need to fight him but it helped establish some credibility to his critics. Foreman was stunned by a hook to the chest but never went down and scored a brutal ko by uppercut/right cross combo.

-rodriguez 67% ko rate. Winning record, only 3 losses.

-anderson 77% ko rate. Winning record, 3 losss

-holyfield 85% ko rate. 2 weight class champ, olympian, undedeated, undisputed. Nuff said. Couldnt ko a 42 year old man.

-ellis 88% ko rate undefeated fighter. Dangerous for a tune up.

-alex stewart 90% ko rate holy $#!%. Why foreman decided to take on such a dangerous guy is beyond me. Winning record, 3 losses to only elte level guys. Stewart had incredibly sharp knuckles and dynamite in both hands. Foremans face was extremely puffy and bruisrd at the end. This was the worst foreman had looked since the lyle and ali fights. Yet...he didnt go down. He refused to. Went the distance but managed to drop him.

-coetzer 63% ko rate winning record 4 losses 2 stoppages

-morrison 86% ko rate, only one loss. Wbo champ. Morrison couldnt put a dent in foreman.

-mike moore 86% ko rate, undefeated southaw, 2 weight class world champ. Lineal heavywight champ. Nuff said. Landed a lot but couldnt stop a 45 year old man and lost his belt by knockout

-grimsley 90% ko rate undefeated

-savarese 83% ko rate undefeated

-briggs 80% ko rate. A future champ, only one loss. Set the record for highest 1st round kos. Couldnt put a dent in foreman. Clearly a robbery.

15 punchers. Many of them were undedeated, all had winning records. Some of them were current or future champs. Several gave other guys in the top ten serious fights.

Add the previous 7 and you have 23 guys who all had winning records and all had a 60% KO rate or higher. Did holmes or marciano face half that many punchers?

Foreman is top 5 best chin at heavy, end of discussion.

 

I'm not going to respond until you stop with the strawman arguments. You really have a ****ing problem with logical fallacies.

 

Did you read your own post?

"Size doesn't determine punching power. Plenty of 190-200 lbrs from history hit harder than many of the super heavies in the top 10 today."

Straw man:

an intentionally misrepresented proposition that is set up because it is easier to defeat than an opponent's real argument.
"her familiar procedure of creating a straw man by exaggerating their approach"

I didnt misrepresent any of your stupid, incorrect arguments. You keep throwing out terms you dont know the meaning of. Word for word, you said size DOESNT determine punching power and claimed MANY 190 pounders hit harder than super heavyweights. Both positions are incorrect.

You suggested a fight should continue even if a fighters face is covered in blood and that the other guy shouldnt be given credit for causing the cuts even if he didnt use headbutts. Again, this position is incorrect. No referee, sanctioning body, coach, or logical fight fan agrees with this incorrect position.

If anyones being illogical its you little girl.

 

Boy quit lying. Every post you have made has some sort of logical fallacy in it. First you said that I said size doesn't matter at all, you keep saying that I claimed Charles to be a bigger puncher than Ali and Young, you keep arguing resume when I am talking about chins (the thread topic), you are matching Marciano's opponents against Foreman's as if that has anything to do with the chin of Marciano or Foreman, etc. Those are ALL strawman. ie arguing against a fake claim that you made up because you can't reasonably dispute my real claims.

The fact that you don't understand that you have fallacious logic in your posts says enough...

 

Foreman. Holmes close to foreman and marciano way behind. A guy that today would have been a small cruiserweight did not have a better chin than guys who pound for pound had great chins and were 30 or 40 pounds heavier.

 

Foreman and Holmes fought much bigger punchers. Alex Stewart, Tommy Morrison or Bert Copper who Foreman took shots from and was unfazed would easily be the biggest punchers Rocky faced. Holmes got up from a massive shot from Shavers which would have killed majority of Maricano opponents. You can argue Moore, Walcott and Charles have better ring iq then any of Foreman or Holmes opponents but pure power no way. When it comes to taking big punching heavyweight shots Holmes and especially Foreman are way ahead of Rocky.

 

The Walcott punch was way more powerful.
It snaps Rockys head all the way around.
And forces his body fall over the direction the punch was travelling.
He puts all his weight into it.
https://streamable.com/r80mu

Marciano recovers as soon as he hits the canvas.
The durability shows an incredible chin to me.
It's possible that the Moore punch caught him a certain way that hurt him worse.
At any rate, he never looked "stumbly", dizzy, losing balance, holding onto the opponent for dear life.

 

Well put
btw look at Rockys defense at 8:10.