Rate their chins. Marciano, foreman or holmes?

youve already insulted me before on the previous pages. So not only are you an idiot, you have short term memory.

1-wow you claim i dont watch boxing matches but then you use a stupid example like that? News flash: a 200 pound is harder to knock out than a 100 pound man.

2-but arent you claiming marcianos chin was better than foremans?

Holyfield and young were VERY good counter punchers.

3-again, foreman and and holmes both got hit by plenty of punches that they didnt see coming by men much bigger tham walcott and never went down. Foreman was notprious for absorbing bombs from left field, especially when he was older and slower.

It doesnt matter how good your chin is if you get hit by a shot you dont see coming. That has less to do with sheer durability and how good your balance is and the ability to brace yourself. Your comparing apples to oranges.

4-doesnt matter. Walcott might have improved in terms of technoque or skill but no man is faster or stronger at 39 than in their mid 20's no matter how many wheeties they eat. Its common sense, i dont need to watch 50 old grainy videos.

For the record i have seen some pf his fights and he looked bigger and more explosive against louis than he did against rocky.

 

You could have saved yourself a lot of typing. Did he drop or stop lyle? No. Moving on.

Chuvalo, you mention the weight difference then quickly gloss over the fact he got his ass kicked?

Hes an idiot if he didnt train for norton, who was one of the highest rated heavies of that decade.

You cant gloss over ali. There was a signicant size difference and ali was coming off a 3 year layoff.

Foster had a glass jaw and was a glorified light heavyweight.

Ill give him middleton, mathis, and shavers. However shavers wasnt exactly a "giant" modern sized shw and rarely weighed more than 220 if i recall. He gave the impression he was bigger because of his long arms, aggressive style, and power.

So no, based on this there isnt much to indicate he could hang with someone like lewis or even golota.

 

You said "struggled to hurt" not "drop or stop" So I'm going to hold you to your words. Man up and admit to being mistaken.

And I would argue this was KD missed by the official. Even if you disagree, Lyle is certainly "hurt."

https://gifs.com/gif/jerry-quarry-v-s-ron-lyle-oY16VB

Oh boy. Another fight you didn't watch. Quarry dominated the fight, busted up Chuvalo like few ever did, he had Chuvalo staggered but moved in and got caught with a sudden left hook. Quarry jumped up but took a knee as the round was ending but mistimed it. It's a fair loss but hardly an ass kicking.

Perhaps. It was a short notice fight when Bonaneva backed out. Quarry refused the first call citing he wasn't in boxing shape but they upped his purse to 100,000 because they were desperate for an opponent who coulda draw at the Garden, so he took the fight.

If the ability to "drop or stop" Ali is a gauge of power than Henry Cooper hit harder than Liston, Foreman, Shavers..etc.

And using Frazier as evidence of struggling against "bigger heavyweights" is perplexing. He was only 5 pounds heavier in their first meeting.

And you "gloss over" Quarry beating up rated fighters that were 8-40 pounds heavier because he couldn't "stop or officially drop" Lyle or Ali. Weird argument.

Oh boy. You are thinking of the wrong Foster there. Why argue so passionately about a subject you clearly don't seem to be that educated in?

I would pick Quarry to beat the **** out of Golota.

 

This is Mac Foster.

http://static.boxrec.com/thumb/6/6a/MacFoster72.JPG/200px-MacFoster72.JPG


He was a top 10 fighter for 3 straight years. He was 6'2" and often 210 or heavier, never close to a Light Heavyweight. He had KO wins over Cleveland Williams, Thad Spencer, and Zora Folley. He had a 100% KO win ratio. Quarry was only man to stop him in his 6 defeats. Quarry won via KO and I believe only man to drop him.


I only bring it up because someone seems to think "Foster had a glass jaw and was a glorified light heavyweight."

 

This is a different debate. Also, it was you who started with the insults.

1. Your reasoning was if they didn't fight someone of their size then their is no way of knowing they would be able to knock them out. How do you know the speed of Walcott wouldn't be too much for a 240 lbr that is used to other 240 lbrs? You don't.

2. I am claiming that when Foreman wasn't gassed he had a fantastic chin (which I said in my first post) when he was gassed (which was liable to happen if he didn't pace himself) Marciano had the much better chin. Both men could take a tremendous punch. We're arguing inches here. Holyfield and Young were not as good of counterpunchers as Walcott. Not by a mile.

3. Holmes got hit by cans and went down. He easily has the weakest chin out of the 3.

4. I never said he was faster. I said he didn't decline. He was also a better fighter in his older years than in his 20s when he was starving half of the time.

So you are confessing to not watching the fights? Got it.

 

Now for some context.

Quarry was a veteran of 54 fights. Lyle had 19.

Lyle was ironically 4 years older. He started his career late due to prison. This was considered a big step up in class for Lyle.

Finally, youre a hypocrite. You refused to give briggs credit for putting lewis in a similar situation. Lewis fell and the ropes held him up but it wasnt ruled a kd and you didnt want to give him that.

Now admit briggs dropped lewis and had world class power and ill admit quarry hurt lyle.

You make more excuses than a politician at a press conference.

Ok thats fair.

Ali was clearly toying with cooper, underestimated him, and was weak to left hooks which cooper was good at.

Youre the one who kept citing fights where he was "outweighed" by as little as 5-8 lbs to somehow prove he could hang with "bigger" heavies.

You didnt specify which one. Because i dont memorize every single encycopedic fact about the great jerry quarry means i dont know anything about boxing?

Ok, here, ill say it. my mistake. You get your nut off now?

Maybe if he had a breakdown, sure.

 

Point being dont call someone a "woman" for using insults when you did the same thing. You have no high ground to stand on.

1-i didnt say walcott cant hurt 240 pounders i said we dont know. You acted like it was a matter of fact.

2-youre talking about TWO DIFFERENT THINGS. The ability to stay on your feet despite being tired is ENDURANCE. The ability to stay upright despite being nailed by a good shot is chin/durability.

3-who were the "cans" who dropped holmes?

Also lets see a 42 year old marciano in there with mercer, mccall, and holyfield. I wonder if he could stand up right until the final bell?

4-nonsense. No fighter can have no sign of physical deterioration between 25-39. Hopkins was a better fight than when he was younger but no intelligent boxing observer will tell you he has kept the same physical stats. Outside of weights or steroids, thats impossible.

Youre not as clever as you think you are. Obviously i meant i dont need to watch all of walcots fights to know that a 40 year old man isnt just as strong and athletic as his 20 year old self. The fact you dont know this and insist on arguing is hilarious.

 

1. So it is possible. That 100% agrees with my argument.
2. The ability to take a punch and not go down is in the chin category. Endurance is how long a fighter can fight at their normal pace. Endurance is a synonym with stamina. The two words are interchangeable.
3. David Bey and Renaldo Snipes. Both were green with Bey only having 14 fights. Snipes had only barely beat Coetzee at the time and wasn't even a big puncher. If Marciano got knocked down by those guys then he would be crucified. Double standards.
4. Obviously not. Look at the Louis fights then look at the Marciano fights. There is no physical differences about Walcott whatsoever. I don't care about Hopkins' rate of progression/degression. I only care about Walcott's right now because that is who we are discussing. Boxing is a case by case basis sport. What applies to one fighter does NOT apply to another fighter.

Yes you do need to watch Walcott's fights to know he is in as good as physical condition as he was years prior. This is exactly what I am talking about. We KNOW you don't watch these fights. Unless you are making a personal profit somehow I don't understand at all why you are arguing about this. It would be much easier for yourself if you debated about a topic you actually were informed about.

 

Irrelevant to the discussion. You made the claim:

"Quarry was an excellent counter puncher but he was more suited for cruiserweight with his smaller frame and struggled to hurt the bigger heavies in Ali, Frazier, and Lyle. "

I'm holding you to your own words. Defend them in the face of damning evidence to the contrary or admit to being mistaken.

I never stated this. Review post #20 on page 2 of this thread for my only comments regarding Briggs. I never once gave an opinion on Briggs vs Lewis, you are very much mistaken.

"There is good reason to suspect Briggs' overall punching ability is incredibly overstated. Regarding Foreman, Briggs really didn't hit him with many quality loaded punches, he was completely outclassed for the vast majority of that fight. "

This is absurd. You are asking me to rule that Briggs knocking Lewis into the ropes be called "dropped" and that Briggs had world class power...while you get to rule that Quarry knocking Lyle into the ropes in a identical fashion be called "hurt" Can you try to be a little....tad... less biased?

Hell No. I will state that Briggs and Quarry both hurt and knocked their opponents (Lewis and Lyle) into the ropes in identical fashion, and in both instances the ref missed a knock down call. That is the fair ruling.

I gave no excuse. I just used the facts to point out that you grossly abused the phrase "ass kicking" and likely only read the result of Chuvalo/Quarry on boxrec and never actually watched how the fight unfolded.

Or you could just admit the "drop or stop" standard you suggested be applied to Quarry/Lyle was absurd.

You described 5 pounds heavier Frazier as a "bigger heavy" so I submitted a list of men who were 8-40 pounds heavier or had a considerable height advantage. post #105, page 7.

-Mathis: 40 pounds heavier
-Lyle: 19 pounds heavier.
-Foster: 14 pounds heavier.
-London:10 pounds heavier.
-Shavers: 8 pounds heavier
-Spencer: 8 pounds heavier.
-Middleton was 5 inches taller.

Not "anything" but it doesn't look good when you are trying to be an authority and argue against people that actually know the 70s very well. And it's not just Quarry, if you can't distinguish Bob Foster from Mac Foster, that's a huge chunk of history there.

 

Walcott "looking bigger" against Louis is a weird claim. He was a little heavier in the Maricano fights and looked to be all muscle.

And yes, I'm not sure what his interest in debating these topics is if he doesn't seem to have watched these fights.

 

1-yeah, and its possible i could throw the farthest spiral in football history but without evidence it doesnt matter. Unless you have evidence of walcott hurting men that size your claims are pure speculation.

2-marciano getting up and enduring a beating for 12 rounds is both a feat of endurance as well as a good chin, it isnt only one.

3-both guys were still younger, fresher, and bigger than walcott or moore. More than 95% of rockys opponents in fact.

4-youre an idiot. Go ask your uncle or anyone with a degree in phys ed, a coach or former athlete if a 40 year old can keep up the same athleticism of a 20 year old.

I never claimed i watched all of walcotts fights and you probably didnt either unless youre 80. I dont need to in order to have common sense. No one in boxing history was as disciplined as bhop and age still caught up with him. The only reasons youre arguing this point is because you know it diminishes rockys performance.

 

1. This is boxing and it isn't a record to beat a guy who weighs 40 lbs more than you. It has been done plenty of times before.
2. Endurance is how long a fighter can keep a certain pace. Simple as that. There are no compromises. Chin is the ability to take a punch. There are no other definitions.
3. Both guys were inexperienced, worse fighters, lower ring iq, and worse punchers. They weren't better than Walcott or Moore in any aspect of boxing.
4. This isn't sprinting, this isn't basketball, this is boxing. You seem to think because one principle applies to another sport that it immediatley applies to boxing. The FACT STANDS that Walcott was just as good when he fought Louis as he was when he fought Marciano. You can keep making these **** poor rebutles but you will never be right. Not in a million years. You keep telling to me to ask all of these outside sources when all I need to do is watch the damn tape.

I have watched all of Walcotts fights that are on youtube. The film supports by argument NOT yours. Don't reply until you have video evidence of Walcott being in worse condition than he was when he fought Louis.

 

Its subjective. We dont know how hurt lyle was. I said he "struggled" to hurt bigger heavies. The only way id be wrong is if you can prove quarry was able to "easily" hurt lyle and if you can prove how hurt lyle was.

Where in my post did i say he DIDNT hurt lyle or couldnt hurt him?

Alright then, if he dropped lewis then briggs has world class power. Moving on.

Dropping someone with a vicious hook for a ten count and stopping them is an "ass kicking".

Perfect example, walcott was kicking rockys ass before he got caught by the suzie q. It didnt really matter what happened prior to the stoppage, what matteree is the result. Rocky kicked his ass back.

Other than cuts or bruises or wobbly legs those are the best indicators a fighter has been hurt.

Again, i never said quarry "never once" hurt lyle, i said it wasnt easy and then you went on a tirade telling me i dont watch fights.

Frazier had more girth, was stockier, had a broader body structure and weighed as high as 220 some fights. In the amateurs he actually cut down from i believe 250 or more according to his biography.

Dude im not trying to be an "authority" on anything. Im arguing common sense. Foreman faced 23 punchers and was never stopped against any of them. Rocky never faced punchers the quality or size of the ones rocky faced and still got hurt.

YOU never made the dinstinction which foster. That is YOUR fault.

 

I believe Walcott was 34 in the Joe Louis fights and 38 in the first Marciano fight.

So I'm not sure why you are comparing a 20 year to a 40 year old.

When Walcott was 20, he had little formal training and boxed to supplement his dock worker income on the weekends. He didn't take the sport seriously, until his comeback in 1944, after quitting the sport for 4 years. He returned with new management and proper training.

Walcott's career prior to his first retirement in 1940 should just be treated for what it was, a physically strong guy trying to earn some bucks on the weekend.

 

Again, your testicles won't fall off if you admit to being mistaken about something on a god damn boxing forum.
It's absurd to argue Quarry struggled to hurt Lyle, when we have footage of Quarry hurting Lyle multiple times without struggle. It's not subjective.

The exact degree of "how easily" and "how hurt" is an impossibility to prove and not necessary. We have footage of Quarry landing single punches on Ron Lyle that produced the visible characteristics of a fighter that had been hurt.

This was your response to my claim that Lyle was hurt.

"Did he drop or stop lyle? No. Moving on."

So in this instance, you were disagreeing with me by defining hurt as "drop or stop."

No, because I don't believe knocking Lewis over once upon a time equates to world class power. Mavrovic sent Lewis into the ropes once as well, I don't rate him as a world class power puncher. Lewis just had a habit of falling asleep and getting hit, and for whatever reason the officials let him use the ropes to stay upright.

And how childish you still won't credit Quarry for the unofficial Lyle KD .

He didn't drop him with a vicious hook for a ten count. You have not seen the fight, or understand what even happened yet you want to argue about your description of it.

So your definition of "kicking his ass" is a temporary state when one fighter demonstrates control or when he is the victor of the fight regardless of circumstances. I suppose you can assign your own meanings to any phrase and argue that's your definition of it.

Or maybe you just didn't watch Chuvalo/Quarry and jumped to a foolish conclusion because of the official KO result.

Regarding Walcott vs Maricano I, it was a bloody back and forth fight with both men giving and taking and suffering facial damage. Walcott had a slight edge in points when Rocky ultimately won with a KO, but I couldn't describe it as an ass kicking for either man.

Okay, so why do you feel it was a struggle for Quarry to hurt Lyle?

I can easily explain why I feel it was not. Quarry visibly hurt Lyle with single punches on several instances. I saw no struggle on Quarry's part, he did what he wanted in this fight.

The fact of the matter is Frazier was only 5 pounds heavier. So criticizing me for listing fighters that were 8 pounds heavier as bigger is hypocritical.

Quarry only faced one man named Foster. Mac Foster. It's not my fault you don't know ****.