Rate these guys on your all time middleweight list

Toney wasn’t lucky. That’s an ignorant comment to make. Yes, he was well behind. But it wasn’t a lucky lunch from nowhere. He was breaking him down with body shots.

 

Yes, but it didn’t look like he could turn things at that stage. He was laid on the ropes where he was taking body shots and uppercuts. It didn’t appear as though he was going to survive.

 

He gave Toney a good fight and then lost the rematch by a very wide decision.

He lost to every good fighter he faced.

By losing to inferior opponents? Who, Kalambay?

Again, he beat Graham, McCallum and Collins.

What are you talking about?

Graham lost a split to McCallum, a decision to Kalambay and he was outboxing Jackson until he got caught with a monster punch. He was more skilful than Jackson, but Jackson’s great power could turn any fight in an instant. Again, Graham also beat Williams.

Sanderline Williams was a good fighter, but getting an 8 round decision over him wasn’t impressive. If you want to highlight that as one of Gerald’s best wins at MW, it just highlights how weak his overall resume at the weight is.

 

Ra's Al-Ghul,

You’re now just debating on statistics.

Yes, Mugabi had a knockout steak. But I’ve asked you three times now, and I’ll ask you again:

Who did he beat??

I don’t care if he won a title and they didn’t. Do you want to know why? Because Mugabi beat a career European level fighter for it that’s why.

Herol Graham and Michael Watson could 100% have beaten that same Frenchman who Mugabi beat at JMW.

Winning that belt doesn’t make him a better fighter than what they were.

It was just circumstances.

I’ll take fighters who held their own with Kalambay, McCallum, Benn and Eubank, over a guy who beat a Euro level JMW and who has no top level wins on his resume.

I’ll take them over him any day of the week.

Beating Nigel Benn is more impressive than beating a euro level JMW.

Mugabi didn’t beat Curry.

John Mugabi never beat a top level fighter in his career, and he often weighed well below 160 in his career. He even weighed in below JMW in some of them. And those were the days of same day weigh-ins.

Michael Watson was a big strong MW who never weighed below 160 who was also bigger and taller with a lot of ability, as evidenced in his fights with Benn, Eubank and Watson.

You couldn’t have made Mugabi the favourite just because he had a better KO streak against low level opponents.

That would be silly.

 

Eubank wasn’t average in power compared to Mugabi.

Mugabi scored a lot of TKOs against lower level and smaller fighters.

Watson was stopped by Mike McCallum in the 11th round.

Mugabi was stopped by Thomas and then by Norris in a round before he fought Gerald.

Was a 5’8, JMW-MW, stronger than Michael Watson who was bigger and heavier, and who fought at MW-SMW against world class opposition?

Mugabi was certainly tough. But he did nothing to have been made a big favourite over Watson. Also, we have no idea how he’d have fared against Graham who was a very fast and elusive southpaw with a big reach.

 

We’ve already established that Gerald’s wins over Jackson were great. But his wins over Williams and Mugabi are just decent wins. Collectively, McCallum’s wins are better than Gerald’s wins at the weight.

If you think that Graham and Watson were just decent contenders and you don’t think that wins over them were particularly good, then there’s no way that you can rate Gerald’s wins over Williams and Mugabi highly.

McCallum’s wins over those guys were much better. Mike went over to London and Boston and he was in his 30’s.

Beating Collins in Boston and Graham in London, rates far higher than getting an 8 round decision over Williams. Especially as Graham was a very tough match up stylistically, and Graham had already beaten Williams at that point.

Why do you rate Julian Jackson above Toney at MW?

In terms of ability?

On resume?

Jackson was a very good MW. But his biggest wins at the weight were over the following fighters:

Herol Graham
Dennis Milton
Thomas Tate

He beat Norris at JMW so you can’t include that here.

James Toney beat:

Mike McCallum
Reggie Johnson
Merqui Sosa
Michael Nunn

James had more overall ability and he had the better wins at the weight.

 

I don’t know what you’re talking about.

I’m at a loss.

You are trying to hype Williams because he had a close fight with Toney. Yet he lost the rematch and never had a top level win in his whole career.

Graham, Kalambay and McCallum were all at a similar level to each other.

I never said Graham was great, but he was on their level and he beat Williams.

Beating Herol Graham, who was a stylistic nightmare for most people, was better than Gerald’s wins over Williams and Mugabi.

 

This is the last time I’m going to ask you:

WHO did Mugabi beat?

Again, you are trying to debate on stats.

I don’t care where he was ranked or how good his knockout ratio was.

Tell me who he beat.

Mike McCallum wasn’t washed up against Watson and he broke him down over the course of the fight by boxing brilliantly.

What evidence is there to suggest that Mugabi would have done it earlier?

Eubank had no notable names on his record? What, and Mugabi did?

Watson didn’t need to fight lots of SMW fights to prove that he was a credible SMW. He proved he was a world class SMW by his performances against Eubank. Go and watch the fights. Eubank was a world class SMW who was in his prime at the time. That’s is enough evidence of how good Watson was at the weight.

 

Ra's Al-Ghul,

They were not just decent wins.

How can they have just been DECENT?

Going to London and beating a peak version of Graham and stopping a peak version of Watson, was not merely decent.

Going to Boston and beating Collins wasn’t decent.

Get real.

If they were only decent wins, it must make Gerald’s wins over Williams and Mugabi absolutely NOTHING.

If those wins were only decent, what the hell does that make Mugabi’s??

Mugabi beat nobody of their calibre.

You are talking nonsense.

As I pointed against Nunn was it a lucky punch (who was weight-drained and got over-confident), Johnson and Sosa (who was rather a fringe contender) were controversial (many had the first winning or it even). And you can't argue McCullum is great because of Toney as who is great because of McCullum (who was faded, while these decisions were controversial too).[/QUOTE]

It wasn’t a lucky punch. Stop being ignorant. Go back and watch the fight.

Toney had more overall ability and he had better wins at the weight than Jackson.

It doesn’t matter if you think it was a lucky punch over Nunn. It wasn’t, and Nunn was in his prime and elite.

It doesn’t matter that fights with McCallum was Reggie were close. They were great fighters and very tough stylistic match ups.

 

So what?

It was an 8 round decision win over a guy who registered no top level wins all throughout his career, and who’d already lost 11 times before Gerald beat him.

If you don’t rate Mike’s wins over Graham, Kalambay and Collins, then Gerald’s wins over Williams was worthless.

There’s nothing to suggest that Mugabi was better than Watson or Graham.

A ranking just depends on the circumstances. The strength of the division at the time etc.

I’m still waiting for you to tell me who Mugabi beat.

 

I don’t care where they were ranked.

Look at Bernard Hopkins when he fought Roy Jones in 1993. If you watch the fight, you can see how good he was. But he didn’t have a high ranking at the time. Yet go and look at some of the fighters who were ranked highly in other divisions but who were nowhere near as good.

No disrespect to those guys you mentioned, but what had they done?

Rene Jacquot was a CAREER European level fighter.

Just because he managed to beat Curry, Mugabi can’t piggy back off of that win. Mugabi didn’t beat Curry. He beat a European level JMW who many other people also beat.

DeWitt and and Benn were better than anybody who Mugabi beat.

Herol Graham beat Sanderline Williams, (who you rate) Ayub Kalule, Rod Douglas, Lindell Holmes and Vinny Pazienza. He also held his own with peak versions of McCallum and Mugabi.

Lindell Holmes beat: Sanderline Williams, Frank Tate and Thulani Malinga.

Graham has better wins than what Mugabi does.

 

There isn’t.

You’re just trying to rate on where he was ranked and not on who he beat.

 

I think we’re pretty much done here.

Hopkins wasn’t rated high generally. Only by the IBF.

Kalule wasn’t done after Leonard. He beat Holmes and Kalambay afterwards. And Graham beat him after those wins.

Holmes beat Williams, Tate and Malinga after losing to Graham.

It doesn’t matter if Jacquot beat Curry.

Mugabi can’t inherit that win.

Mugabi didn’t beat Curry.

He has no top level wins himself. That’s a fact.

Roy Jones doesn’t inherit a win over Michael Nunn because he beat Toney who beat Nunn.

Mugabi’s win over Jacquot isn’t better than beating Nigel Benn.

 

Mugabi himself has no top level wins.