Rating Black Murders Row Heavyweights pre 1960

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by SuzieQ49, May 9, 2010.


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  1. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    1. Holman did beat some good names. he also beat Sid Peaks(big puncher), Johnny haynes(dangerous puncher), Dale Hall(fought rex layne to a draw). I think it's obvious Holman was big strong and could punch..hard. It's the other physical aspects I am worried about. Holman was slow as molasses, and had very poor boxing skills.

    2. How washed up were Ray and Charles? Did they even have anything left?

    3. I like Walls. He was a smooth polished boxer who could put your lights out with his right hand. He was big too. Walls was very dangerous. His resume undersells how much talent he had. He had a lot more of it than Holman. Walls got screwed out of big fights because a June 1954 fight between him and valdes was cancelled due to walls suffering and injury in training, and a fight between he and archie moore was postponed and never rescheduled.

    I have read numerous article about a walls-marciano fight being heavily negotiatied and potentially scheduled. i have never read a report where john holman was even being considered as a title opponent for marciano.
     
    SuzieQ49, May 9, 2010
    SuzieQ49, May 9, 2010
    #16
  2. OLD FOGEY

    OLD FOGEY Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    on Satterfield's ratings

    1950-----rated #4 at lightheavyweight

    1951-----rated #8 at lightheavyweight

    1953-----rated #9 at heavyweight

    1954-----rated #10 at lightheavyweight

    1955-----rated #8 at heavyweight

    1956-----rated #6 at heavyweight

    Walls rated twice, in 1953 and 1954 at #5.

    Baker and Valdes each rated five times at heavyweight. Satterfield actually rated longer than either.

    Perhaps Henry will read this and tell us what was the highest Bob Satterfield ever rated in the monthly ratings at lightheavyweight and at heavyweight.

    I must mention that there were also NBA ratings, and I have seen some. They are similar but men like the Utah based Rex Layne and the Chicago based Satterfield did somewhat better in those ratings than they did in the New York based Ring rankings.
     
    OLD FOGEY, May 9, 2010
    OLD FOGEY, May 9, 2010
    #17
  3. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    Not at heavyweight. Besides, Valdes was a # 1 rated contender twice, and Bob Baker moved up to the number 2 spot one year. When was Satterfield ever rated that highly?
     
    SuzieQ49, May 9, 2010
    SuzieQ49, May 9, 2010
    #18
  4. OLD FOGEY

    OLD FOGEY Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    1. "How washed up were Ray and Charles?"

    Not that washed up. Ray was coming off a decision loss to Kid Riviera, but in the fight before that he had stopped Sid Peaks. He was clearly still a dangerous fighter. Charles had lost to Marciano in 1954, but he was still ranked #3 and had beaten Charley Norkus and Verne Escoe in 1955. He would go on to beat Holman in a return and then beat Paul Andrews. Charles still had something left.

    Brion was coming off a win over Dan Bucceroni. Boardwalk Billy Smith had ko'd Harold Johnson a few months earlier, although he was coming in off a ko loss to Andrews. Satterfield still had some good wins in front of him including Johnny Summerlin. Thompson was on a winning streak and ranked #3 when Holman upset him. All of these men were still dangerous fighters.

    Walls, in contrast, has a record padded with washed up fighters like Joe Kahut, Bernie Reynolds, Tommy Harrison, etc. Only Layne could still fight and even he had gone back quite a bit.

    I don't care who was scheduled to fight whom when, Holman has the more impressive record.
     
    OLD FOGEY, May 9, 2010
    OLD FOGEY, May 9, 2010
    #19
  5. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    Holman looks dreadfull on film.
     
    SuzieQ49, May 9, 2010
    SuzieQ49, May 9, 2010
    #20
  6. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    I, mean. Ray was old as **** by this point. Peaks is a good win, but it isn't a world class win. Ray had lost his top 10 status by this point too.

    Charles was washed up. He was finished. His legs, reflexes gone after 1954. I mean let's be real, charles lost to toxie friggin hall in 1955. Hall was a lifetime clubfighter who happened to spar with marciano once in a while. Sure charles squeeked by unspectacular norkus, and outboxed a very crude holman in a rematch, but the man couldn't even beat Toxie Hall!


    This sounds nice and lovely, but once again holman looks like **** on film. Walls was by far the more talented of the two, and walls was in a serious position to challenge marciano for the world heavyweight title...while holman was not.
     
    SuzieQ49, May 9, 2010
    SuzieQ49, May 9, 2010
    #21
  7. hhascup

    hhascup Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Satterfield's highest rating was #2, BUT I think that was in the Light Heavyweight division. I will check it out when I get a chance. He was 1st rated from September 1948 to February 1958 for a total of 72 months.
     
    hhascup, May 9, 2010
    hhascup, May 9, 2010
    #22
  8. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    light-heavyweight division is irrelevant. I am talking strictly heavyweight ratings only.
     
    SuzieQ49, May 9, 2010
    SuzieQ49, May 9, 2010
    #23
  9. OLD FOGEY

    OLD FOGEY Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Who were the big wins for Walls, then? Other than a slipping Layne, I don't see much to get too excited about no matter how good he supposedly looks on film. And how good could he look on film losing to Edgardo Romero at his peak.

    Charles does look past it against Holman. Holman is a huge man with a great build, but doesn't have much skill. Doesn't prove he couldn't punch, though. One thing. Off the film of the fight with Satterfield on youtube, Holman could take it pretty well.

    By the way, I don't think Valdes looks all that good on film, if slightly better than Holman.

    Sneering at Holman doesn't obviate the fact that he was rated #4 in the world in the 1955 ratings, higher than Walls ever rated in a yearly rating.
     
    OLD FOGEY, May 9, 2010
    OLD FOGEY, May 9, 2010
    #24
  10. OLD FOGEY

    OLD FOGEY Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Which year was Tiger Jack Fox rated at heavyweight?

    Don't get angry about it. No matter how you cut it, Baker and Valdes were beaten badly by Satterfield, regardless of ratings, which fairly reflect winning streaks and consistency. A fighter such as Satterfield, who fiddled away fights against second-raters, never rated as high perhaps, but the experts and the public knew that he was very dangerous when the chips were down and he trained seriously for a fight.
     
    OLD FOGEY, May 9, 2010
    OLD FOGEY, May 9, 2010
    #25
  11. OLD FOGEY

    OLD FOGEY Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Just one fact I found mind-boggling.


    John Holman ko'd Elmer Ray in Holman's 10th professional fight.


    Even granting that Ray had seen better days and all, I wonder if anyone defeated such a good fighter so early in thier career and with so little experience. Holman defeated Turkey Thompson, then ranked #3 in the world, in his 16th professional fight.
     
    OLD FOGEY, May 9, 2010
    OLD FOGEY, May 9, 2010
    #26
  12. Jear

    Jear Well-Known Member Full Member

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    I think Leon Spinks had a fairly good win in his 8th fight
     
    Jear, May 10, 2010
    Jear, May 10, 2010
    #27
  13. mattdonnellon

    mattdonnellon Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Old George Godfrey should be in,IMO. Armstrong should be in. Good list overall and naturally I'd have a load different, Cleveland, Murray much lower, Griffin lower, Clarke and Childs higher...maybe look at Jack Thompson, Good to see Fox though.
     
    mattdonnellon, May 10, 2010
    mattdonnellon, May 10, 2010
    #28
  14. mattdonnellon

    mattdonnellon Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    And have a look at Jeffries first 10 fights or so
     
    mattdonnellon, May 10, 2010
    mattdonnellon, May 10, 2010
    #29
  15. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    Just good to see these names getting mentioned .
     
    mcvey, May 10, 2010
    mcvey, May 10, 2010
    #30
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