Rating Black Murders Row Heavyweights pre 1960

Thanks for the posting all of the photos. This is a fresh topic.

You won't see many placing Ray and Godfrey above McVey or Jeanette.

I think Murray is placed too high, and Griffin who owns wins over hall of fame fighters is placed too low.

I think this thread would be a good opportunity to iron out the listed reaches. Ray had an 81" reach? Never saw that before. I do know Mcvey had a listed 78" reach in papers. I had Langford's reach at 74", not 76".

 

I think Hank is lucky to edge in, aside from an early Johnson he beat little of note, a loss to Russell and draws with Kennedy is not stirling stuff. noy a bad fighter by any means but revisionism certainly benefits him.

 

I too, cannot see Ray and Godfrey above Jeannete and McVey.Good topic though.

 

Forgot Spinks.

Jeffries has been mentioned also.

I still think Holman's victory over Ray in his 10th pro fight is certainly mind-boggling. There is no listed amateur experience at all for Holman. He was only 21, younger than Jeffries who did not face such a level of competition until he was 22 with Ruhlin and Choynski.

Spinks had fewer pro fights but was 24 and had been an Olympic champion.

I had never thought of Holman as a ring prodigy before.

Suzie-Q has a good point about Holman looking bad on film. After his great start, beating Ray and Thompson before he was 23, his career tanked, until he came back in the late 1954 and 1955 to push into the top ten. He seems to have been a diamond in the rough who never progressed that much. Still ko's of Charles, Ray, Brion, Satterfield, Smith, etc point to an exceptionally dangerous puncher no matter how it is sliced.

 

Sorry, old Fogey cant see what you do in Holmans record. Elmer Ray had come and gone as a fighter, was probably 37-very old for a Hw then-and picking up his last payday. The rest of the record has wins over faded contenders and a lot of defeats. And as stated he looks poor on film. Jeff beat a peak Griffin in one of his first fights and Van Bukirk was a live contender, then you have Choynski and Ruhlin, different level in my opinion.
Personally I'd have Jeannette and McVey over Godfrey and Ray, but there is a good agrument to be made. Murray though I cant see as high as Suzie does because I dont rate Bobo, Blunt, Sheppard, Hart, Walker, Peak etc as high as he does. Too many defeats with not eneough marque wins-Bivins(2-3) in the series and Turkey Thompson are all that impress me. Certainly a top 30 man in this list but not top 10.
I'll try and get the time to put up my own list rather than picking holes in an excellent piece of work and novel idea.

 

There is no film on Ray, and his resume of wins is less than McVey's or Jeanette's. I would not be confident with that pick.

As for George Godfrey, he did not beat many top level fighters, and has too many DQ losses from low blows. Godfrey was a thug, and a cheap shot artist in the ring. He and Golota are disgraces to boxing. I also think Godfey's stamina was a bit of an issue as he did not score many late round stoppages. His manager put him in 10 rounds fights more often than not. Godfrey was in fixes...so they say. With fixes it is hard to say if so and son won or lost fair in square.

I have to disagree a bit here. Griffin beat Johnson after Johnson had 25+ recorded fights, and spent some time with Choynksi learning the tricks of the trade. Johnson could not defeat Griffin in three fights. Johnson would be on top of this list if he never got a lineal title shot pre 1960. That win alone is huge.

Griffin also beat Jack Munore who fought for the title, and a very good Harris Martin, who was a top black fighter better known as the Black Pearl.

Griffin was in decline when Martin beat him in 1901. Besides is being knocked out early vaults a fighter down the list ( as I think it should ) then Martin has far more early KO losses in comparison to pretty much everyone on the list.

 

The Easy List(after someone else did the hard work)
1 Langford
2 Jackson
3 Jeannette
4 Wills
5 McVea
6 Godfrey
7 Machen
8 Folley
9 Bivins
10 Ray
11 Norfolk
12 Clarke
13 Martin
14 Gains
15 Fox
16 Henry
17 Valdez
18 Murray
19 Williams
20 Childs
21 Armstrong
22 Godfrey(old)
23 Franklin
24 Baker
25 Griffin
26 Toles
27 Satterfield
28 Thompson
29 Felix
30 Slade
Honorable mention Walls, Billy Wilson, Klondike, Bobo, Blunt
I ommited Harold Johnson 'cause he got L/H shots.

 

Great work.

But wouldn't you say Cleveland Williams and Eddie Machen got their chance, or multiple chances, at the title. I don't really think either were shunned.

 

Many of them were around after Walcott an dCharles, they were not deprived due to color. Example: Williiams lost to Liston, did not get shot at tile. Folley lost several times, got shot when old against Ali. Nino Valdez had elimination bout with Archie Moore for title shot against Marciano--he lost, Moore got title shot. And in last example, a Black guy gets chance either way.

Harry Wills lost to Sharkey abd Pualino Uzcudum, losting shot at title.
These werre some great contenders, no need to make it a case of them being excluded due to race when it is not case in most of their carreers.

 

I like Matt's top ten in general. Jeanette over Wills is interesting? Any reason why?