Rating Black Murders Row Heavyweights pre 1960

Jeannette was very competitive v Langford, Johnson, Wills and McVea, allways in shape with a great level of consistancy in his career. He was a good boxer, clever and could punch. That, and I've never rated Wills for what he didnt do so he suffers a bit for "only" defeating fading black stars-generally not his fault of course.

 

I'd put Wills and Jackson above Langford personally.

 

Ed proved himself Bob's master after a tough series and Griffin was never a top contender and only came to the forefront retrospectively after Johnson and Jeffries came to the top. By this time Hank had slipped. Childs and even Klondike were more visible on the national scene, also Walter Johnson.

 

When did Martin prove himself Armstrong's "master"? He won one fight against him and was ko'd by Armstrong in their last fight.

And his one victory over Armstrong came after Armstrong had laid off over two years.

 

I think of the premier black greats, Wills is probably overated, whereas Jeannete and McVey are probably the opposite.

 

I take your point. Ed lost on his debut(?) to Bob but while unlikely to be his first fight, it was his first at the top level. Their next fight I cant find anything on, the third saw Armstrong well beaten in this their most important meeting and while Bob had not fought for two years he was very active as a sparring partner.
The forth fight was an edge to Martin even though he was down in two of the six rounds with Armstrong saved by the bell in one . The last affair saw Bob demolish Ed with body punches as he had done in their original meeting. So at best only even for Martin or edge to Bob. However Martin defeated Childs whom Armstrong couldn't cope with. I still rate Martin over Armstrong but as you say not on their h2h meetings.
Incidently I believe they stood 6-4 and 6-2 and not the 6-6 and 6-3 commonly reported.

 

On heights. I agree with you. Martin was probably slightly less than 6-4 (I read a SF newspaper account of a fight with Johnson and it mentioned Martin as being 3 inches taller, not 5 or 6.

You give a pretty good summation of their series, except perhaps for giving Martin an edge in their next to last fight. Martin was down six times in that one. Both men almost got knocked out. Hard to judge such a fight without film.


One thing, Childs was aging when Martin got to him. Armstrong probably fought a better version of Childs. Comparing Martin to Armstrong, the difference to me is that Martin had a great run in 1901 and 1902, but then more or less tanked except for the one victory over McVea. Armstrong was in and out all the way, beating this guy and losing to that one. They end on rather the same level over all with Armstrong having Ko's of Martin (2), Slavin (2), Butler (2), and Everett to pretty much match Martin.

 

true,

 

That is reasonable, especially with McVea in there.

Armstrong also had a draw with Choynski.

 

Frank Childs shouldn't be forgotten, he beat Armstrong easily several times, drew with Johnson, proved himself superior to Johnson's conquerer Klondike, Fred Russell who ko'd Griffin and a slew of Conroys, Dunkhorsts etc. He is on a par with Martin and Armstrong at least.
If we now look at the people that proved superior to these we come up with Choynski, Jeffries, Russell and Kennedy also performed well with the top black fighters and I can see no way that pre 1902'ish only Jackson was of the top level with Corbett, Fitz, Maher, Choynski, Sharkey and Jeffries. McCoy and Ruhlin too were up there with Martin, Armstrong, and Childs.
Griffin, Butler and Klondike belong with Russell, Dunkhorst, O'Donnell,Conroy, Kennedy etc

 

It's about time this excellent topic resurfaced.