Rating the Heavyweights of Liston's era

Late 1950s-Early 1960s Heavyweight Division....how do you think this rates compares to other eras?


Here is how the top 10 rate

1. Cassius Clay- 7-0 against top 10 list
2. Sonny Liston- 7-2 against top 10 list
3. Floyd Patterson- 3-5 against top 10 list
4. Ingemar Johansson- 2-2 against top 10 list
5. Cleveland Williams- 1-3-1 against top 10 list
6. Ernie Terell- 3-2 against top 10 list
7. Harold Johnson- 2-0 against top 10 list
8. Zora Folley 2-3-1 against top 10 list
9. Eddie Machen- 2-5-2 against top 10 list
10. Nino Valdez- 0-5 against top 10 list

Question: What fights of the following 10 fighters have you seen in there primes?


Size

Cassius Clay- 6'3 210lb 83"

Sonny Liston- 6'1 212lb 84"

Floyd Patterson- 6'0 195lb

Ingemar Johansson- 6'0 200lb

Cleveland Williams- 6'3 215lb 82"

Ernie Terell- 6'6 212lb 84"

Harold Johnson- 5'10 175lb

Zora Folley- 6'1 200lb

Eddie Machen- 6'0 195lb

Nino Valdez- 6'3 212lb 80"




Style



Classic Boxer/Puncher: Sonny Liston

Defensive Counterpuncher: Eddie Machen and Harold Johnson

Punching Swarmer: "Peek a Boo" Floyd Patterson

Standup Slugger: Cleveland Williams and Nino Valdez

Slick Boxing Technician: Zora Folley

Unorthodox Spoiler: Ernie Terell

Stick and Move Speedster: Cassius Clay




The Jab


Late 1950s-Early 1960s had perhaps the best era in heavyweight history for Jabbers. The Jab is a vital piece of winning a fight. The Jab is used both offensivley to score points, defensivley to keep your opponent off you, and to control the tempo of the fight.

Jabbers:

Sonny Liston: has a consensous top 3 jab in heavyweight history. no explanation here intended.

Nino Valdez: Quite the Jab. It was long it was sharp and very powerful, it was used often to outbox a still dangerous ezzard charles in 1953. Charles claimed after the fight he was suprised by how good the Cuban's Jab was.

Ernie Terrell: By far his best Weapon, and one of the more underated jabs in HW history. At 6'6 with 84" reach he had a very long jab. Not only was it long, but it was extremley accurate, very elegant, and very active. He outjabbed one of the best jabbers zora folley, and used it to beat big cat williams in a rematch. Few could jab with ernie terell, and his jab was the one of the biggest reasons he became WBA champ.


Zora Folley: His Jab in his prime was like a piece of art. It was as smooth and artistic as they come. You could not show in slowmotion a better textbook jab than Zora Folley's. It snapped out there like a Crocodile latching onto a wilda beast.


Harold Johnson- One of the best Jabs in history, no better at 175lb. It was so good that even at 175lb moving up to heavyweight, he was still able to use his jab to easily outbox heavyweight much larger and taller. His Jab flowed like water running through a cannal, it was so textbook, it was etremley accurate and very composed. He knew when to threw it and where his opponent would be when he threw it, he was 2 steps ahead of every opponent.


Cassius Clay- One of the fastest jabs we have ever seen. it flung out there with the blazing speed of a electricity. It like one split second, now its there now its gone......


Big Cat Williams- His jab was pure and simple a telephone pole. Not the fastest sharpest, but when it landed it did alot of damage. It went through opponents skulls like a bull running through the red cape. it was actually thrown with perfect technique, the way I was taught currently by my trainer....When you throw the jab you tuck ur head to the right ever so gently allowing your left shoulder to come up and block ur chin and allowing your head to droop at a proper angle to protect yourself defensivley and allow an effective set up offensivley. Not many fighters use this exact technique, but joe louis and Big Cat williams were 2 of them.



Punching Skills/Power


This was the first era in heavyweight history that was filled with Skilled Big punchers.


Sonny Liston- One of the greatest punchers in Heavyweight history. The power in every punch he threw was unbelievable, like a train running into a person. His punches were like Clubs, they lifted you in the air drove you back, and bludgeoned you. With his 84" reach, his punches could catch you at long range but he could also throw them very short and precise, a rare deed for a long armed fighter. His punches were very sharp and accurate, his repoirtre consisted of one of the greatest left hooks in history, a clubbing right hand, two deadly uppercuts....His two fisted assault did severe damage to opponents, he knocked out the top rated heavyweights of his era more decisevly and cleanly than any heavyweight in history with the exception of mike
tyson.


Floyd Patterson: His mixture of handspeed/Combinations/Power is one of the best blend of tools in heavyweight history. He threw 5-6 punch combinations like we had never seen before. All his punches were razor fast and packed some heat too. He left ingo johansson out unconsious and archie moore wondering who the hell he was after one left hook.


Nino Valdez: Devastating Puncher. Scored 34 knockouts out of 48 wins, with many knockouts over rated contenders. His Right Hand was a Killer knockout shot. It left the durable Hurricane Jackson sensless after 2 rounds. His destroyed most of Europe when he was in his 30s. His right hand was thrown classic Cuban style the way Teofilo Stevenson threw it. He also had a very heavy left hook making him a two fisted assasin with big size 6'3 212lb. His Size and Power made Cus Damato turn him down on a dime.


Big Cat Williams- 6'3 215lb Built Like Hercules, he was one of the most intimidating fighters to ever step into the ring. Only he packed artillery to go along with the looks. His Left Hook was like an atomic bomb, when it exploded on something, it was goodnight. He left Jim Wiley on film into the canvas for 20 min after one short left hook crying his eyes out. Not only was his powerful, but for a man his size he had lightning hands. His left hook was so fast he could triple up on the left hook, a very hard combination for any fighter to do. His right was powerful as well, but his left was the killer shot. His amazing Handspeed and fast twitch muscles allowed his bombs to travel there quicker, making him the most feared and dangerous contender of that era.



Ingemar Johansson- Ingos bingo..... The Hammer of Thor....The Right Hand. Have you ever seen a right hand cripple opponents on film the way Ingemar Johanssons crippled opponents? It was one of the sneakiest. He would trick his opponents pre fight and during the fight into unleashing his Bingo. Opponents dropped like they been shot when hit by it. The power is unexplainable except it had god given ability.


Boxing Skill

This was an era of Very skilled Boxing Technicians


Harold Johnson- One one of most perfectly flawless textbook boxers of all time. He used perfect Technique in everything he did. He carried a high gaurd, chin tucked, his defensive blocking skills and slipping punches were fanastic. He always knew how to outbox his opponents..... he would always find the right angle, or the right opening, the right counter. One of the highest rated members in Sweet Science.


Eddie Machen- One of the most skilled Heavyweight Contenders in history. Not Many men had the all around ring skills of eddie machen. Ezzard Charles claimed in 1955 Eddie Machen would be the next heavyweight champion after watching him perform his magic. Eddie had a complete modern style despite fighting in the 1950s. Eddie carried a very high gaurd with chin tucked. His upperbody movement was amazing, and his footwork was very astute. He was a very smart boxer who always looked to outhink his opponent.


Zora Folley: Few have Seen Zora in his prime. but he was quite amazing. Like Machen, he had a very modern style. He carried his gaurd high, chin tucked, and his boxing skills were nothing short of extrordinary. He was a master counterpuncher, but also liked to go on the attack using his jab to score point before he could unleash sharp pinpoint punches to score points...his aggresive boxer style made him hard to outpoint. His slick footwork and movement in his prime enabled him to take control of his fights and confuse his opponents. He outboxed eddie Machen cleanly in there rematch.


Floyd Patterson- While some may or may not disagree with the peek a boo style, one cannot disagree it was a very effective style. All Damatos fighters torres patterson tyson one championships with it. patterson masted the style, he kept his gloves high to block punches, he bobbed and weaved with his head to make his opponent miss by inches so he could unleash his fast counters. Trouble is when ur reflexes and speed fade, so does the peek a boo style. But floyd had natural boxing instincts. Patterson showed in his 30s when his reflexes were fading just how good a boxer he was by outboxing many of the young 1960s contenders.

This content is protected

Nino Valdez

This content is protected

Big Cat Williams

This content is protected

Zora Folley

This content is protected

Eddie Machen

This content is protected

Ingemar Johansson

This content is protected

Harold Johnson

This content is protected

Cassius Clay

This content is protected

Floyd Patterson

This content is protected

Sonny Liston

 

bump

 

ESB following question for posters:


1. How does this era rate compared to the other heavyweight eras?

2. What film of each of these 10 fighters have you seen in there primes

 

Well Fogey, Moore for some odd reason stop taking on ranked heavyweights 1957-1962. He started to really show his age by this time and struggled with heavyweight journeyman. The only rated HW contender he beat was when he nearly killed big # 4 rated alejandro lavorante in 62 a very impressive win.

But valdez was far more active vs rated heavyweights in the late 1950s. In 1957-1958 he beat rated heavyweight contenders harold carter, mike dejohn 2x, wayne bethea 2x, and pat mccmutry. The mccmutry knock out was a 1 round devastating knockout over the new white hope, and the come from behind harold carter knockout stopped a big winning streak by harold carter.

During this time moore was not even in the top 10 ring magazine rankigs while valdez moved all the way up to # 2, and was considered seriousely for a title shot vs patterson, but damato turned valdez down instantly. valdez was viewed by this time as more of a threat to floyd than archie was.

 

I own the cooper fight on tape, it was a bad hometown decision that should have gone to folley IMO. Folley knocked him down and I thought edged out the boxing match. But folley proved it was a fluke by dismantling cooper in 2 rounds in rematch.


Doug Jones I thought about seriously, I was deciding between him and valdez, but i ultimatley chose valdez because he was in serious condition to get a shot at floyd pattersons title, while jones was never in line for a title shot, not to mention I perferred valdes size power and jab over jones.

 

Williams was only a teenager during this time, not to mention he was consistently weighing in the high 190s, and had not fully matured to the brickhouse 215lber he would later become. Williams was like you said a young prospect, he was nowere near his peak when these fights took place.

Sonny Liston claimed cleveland williams gave him his toughest fights up until ali. In the first fight, williams broke listons nose and gave him a beating in the 1st round. He had liston hurt. Liston claimed williams hit as hard as he did, and that he was the most feared heavyweight out there. In exact quote "no one wants to fight cleveland williams"(Sonny Liston devil and his times).

"In a way Williams is tougher to fight than Liston because he has the speed the other doesn't have. You can't walk around Cleveland like you can Liston." -Eddie Machen

I disagree. He drew with top ranked eddie machen in a fight where most thought williams edged. Then then knocked out Ernie Terrell, the only man to do so in his career, and lost a controversial rematch in which he floored terell for a 9 count in the 2nd. He also beat top prospect 18-1 6'4 billy daniels, a fighter who gave ali a close fight, daniels was a tall boxer with very good skills. He also knocked out rated contender alex miteff, and beat other tough young fringe contenders like sonny banks and wayne bethea. His blowout over the very durable alonzo johnson in 1 short round was a devastating knockout. Williams did quite well in his prime stepping up in competition. He arguebably got the better of both machen and terell, two top contenders, and he gave a prime sonny liston his toughest fights.

Boxrec does not show everything. Williams was so dangerous that he had lots of trouble getting rated contenders willing to fight him, no one wanted to fight him. Damato refused to give williams a shot, ingo wanted no part of williams, Folley did not want to go anywhere near williams left hook with that chin of his. Cooper would cross the street if he saw williams walking down his side of the street. you cant fight who wont fight you. williams did what he was supposed to do with the prospects and journeyman, he slaughterd them. when he was given the few chances to fight top rated opposition, he fought on even or better terms with them proving his world class level.


Ring Magazine consistently rated Williams in there top 10 ratings 5 years in a row in the 1960s.