Ray Arcel on Hagler - Hearns.

I am explaining why I would not rank Hagler as high as Hearns. He never moved up and tested himself with someone who was solid at their weight. No matter what.

 

I think Hearns did something Hagler never did. Duran did too. Leonard did too. Hagler wanted to break the middleweight record, and then when Hill makes twice the defenses you say he had a weak bunch of guys, which I admit were not great. Tyrone Frazier, but to say he was overrated? I am not sure how many rate him high to say he was overrated. I somehow think Hill beats Qawi on style. Spinks no, but Qawi? I think he could edge him with his speed and style believe it or not. Hagler knew he didn't want Spinks or Qawi who were naturally stronger.

 

Hill was a hall of fame fighter and a decent fast left handed guy who had a great jab and left hook counter and great legs. To beat him was hard if you didn't have the speed... That is why he was consistent and could defend so much. He was not ferocious like Duran, but I think he had a similar ceiling problem as Duran in that when he reached the top guy he couldn't win. Duran gets excuses when he doesn't win. People don't get it. And Hill vs. Barkley believe it or not I see Barkley being stopped on a counter left. Styles make fights. Barkley could beat Hearns, but he would never beat Hill at 175.

 

I have to read my comments to see what you are responding to. It seems like we have been talking about this for ages. Yes I know that fight they had in 1985 was a fluke fight where both guys went tops and Marvin came out on top. Both guys collided. Any two fighters whomever they are if they start off a round one like that will probably only go 3 or 4 rounds. That is how that works. Had Marvin and Thomas started off normally in a fight at a slower pace that means Hearns can pick his shots more and get leverage on his punches, and Marvin would have to work to get inside Whether he would or not that is not the question, but the slower pace would help Hearns get his punches off, and Hagler knew that. Knowing Marvin's career and I do has nothing to do with saying a slower pace favors Hearns.

 

He had a ceiling, but overrated. Just below elite but still Hall of fame. Not particularly great but borderline. You cannot ignore 24 or so title defenses in 2 weights and 3 championship reigns. He was no bum at boxing. I think his boring style and converted southpaw style made him not so exciting and that hurt his ranking as much as Duran's exciting style helped his ranking. 24 title defenses or whatever it was deserves some credit. I would think.

 

for what that's worth. I prefer worthy opposition at the optimum weight over moving up to face opposition that either cant fight or is used up

case in point, wins over Lalonde does not mean as much as beating Norris

beating a bigger man who cant actually fight might impress you but what what good is it when he flops so miserably to a lighter man closer to Leonard's best weight, and who can actually fight

beating overweight lugs and shells is overrated

 

I never said he was a bum. Don't insinuate that as I never said that. FACT: he was beaten by the same Tommy Hearns that lost to Iran Barkley. FACT: he got his ass handed to him by Darius. FACT: he was stopped in 4 by a Roy Jones bodyshot. Have you any idea how many lightheavies went the distance with Jones? Those are all facts which even you can't deny. He fought in a weak era and was CLEARLY NOT a great lightheavy.

 

All good sir

 

There was never any buzz about his moving up. Never. If you had followed his career you would have known that. And, quite frankly, no way would Tommy or Leonard have challenged Spinks or Qawi.

 

I was referring to your quote when you said if Hagler had fought Tommy righty that you were sure that Tommy could have knocked Hagler out-ignoring the fact that Hagler was never even legitimately knocked down. You're still making excuses.

 

Duran beat Leonard. Hill NEVER beat anyone on the same level as Leonard. Jesus Christ, Leonard ko'd Tommy who beat Hill lol. I would have loved to have seen Hill (or Leonard or Tommy although it never would have happened lol) fight any of these fellows: Spinks, Qawi, Saad, Eddie Mustafa Muhammad, Galindez, James Scott, Yaqui Lopez etc. If that were the case we would all be writing Virgil who?

 

You keep ignoring the FACT that there was never any buzz about Hags moving up. Whatever makes you feel good about your opinion. You have your favorites and will make excuses for them to the hilt. All good. And if you believe Hill beats Qawi(lol), God bless you. Hill had NOTHING and I do mean NOTHING to keep Qawi off of him. You think Darius beat the crap out of Hill? Dwight would have pummelled Hill.

 

Hearns beat decent fighters. I mean you know as well as I do that Andries was a decent fighter, and Hill is hall of fame and Hearns beat them at 175... And the guys he beat at Welt and other weights were hall of fame. He fought hall of fame guys at everyweight he fought at except 190. Lalonde was a joke win for Ray. I agree. especially weakening him

 

every fighter gets their ass handed to them by someone. The totality of the career is what matters and who they beat. Roy was a great fighter. Tommy was a great fighter. He couldn't beat them. He had a ceiling, but how could beat those guys. The fact is Virgil was hall of fame and a fighter who was undefeated when Hearns beat him and had 10 title defenses and 5 years younger than Tommy. You and I disagree. Great lightheavyweight? He is borderline. But he was consistent at a high level with 24 title defenses, and that cannot be ignored at all.

 

no that is not true. No, maybe you didn't follow his career as much as you think. I remember the time. Spinks asked him to move up and Hagler didn't want to.. Spinks offered it and pushed for it after hearing how Hagler was asking to fight Ray and Roberto and Tommy. He said, come up and try my belts if you think it is so easy. And you are wrong about Hearns not challenging Spinks. Had Tommy beaten Marvin, the plan was to fight Spinks in 1986. That is the truth. At least according to Steward. Whether you think he had a chance or not. Tommy would have done it.