Ray Arcel on Hagler - Hearns.

Thanks man.

 

31 seconds in on this video

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So 31 second mark of the youtube video. not the round clock which didn't show when the punch landed. - Hagler is coming forward with Hearns back against the ropes I think 23 seconds after the first round starts (since the first round starts at 8 seconds of the video)and Hagler is throwing and so is Hearns. Hearns throws a right but that one grazes and then Hearns lands a punch against Marvin's left forehead at 31 seconds in and Hagler's leg dips and he backs up and his legs are wobbly and he moves into Hearns with his legs shaky. Then Steele breaks them and he is jumping up and down a little to get his legs back because they were shaky, but to his credit he comes back. At 42 seconds he sort of rubs near the area he was hit which was near the left eyebrow but comes back. But to say that is not a man hurt would be false. His legs were wobbling and shaky. I think the punch which broke Hearns hand was at 55 seconds of the video. The interesting thing about the round is what caused Marvin's cut. It was Hearns mouthpiece. Inadvertent. 1:19 left in the round on the clock (1:50 on the video)When the punch hurt Hagler, the Toprank round
clock was not showing, but when Hagler was cut it was.

 

Because it's ******ed to say he fought there before them... when he was only fighting there because HE WAS OUT OF SHAPE and couldn't make the LW limit to defend his title. So with the proper context... it's then beyond dumb to say he fought there before him. That has zero significance to any argument you're trying to present.

He showed you how he would properly move up and it's right in front of your face. He actually TOOK ww fights to try and acclimate. His team stated he was going to give ww a go... he then took on the reigning ww champion of the world. Looks like what most fighters do when they are in shape and moving up naturally. So tell me, how on God's Green Earth does it matter that an out of shape Duran fought at 154 before them? Those are the argument I find silly and disingenuous. Sometimes you state relevant facts, other times you say... Duran fought at 154 before Hearns or Wilfred... that is most point. I could care less that you don't think Duran is top 10, you're right that's totally fine and your opinion. I never challenge you to have him there. I do challenge stuff like the above, and the other gem you have, Duran has a much longer prime because he was still winning fights for years after Hearns...What???? To even think he was prime in the mid to late 80's is comical. Yet you've said his prime is longer and the losses still count because he was also winning; which again shows HE WASN'T PRIME, hence you see a spotty record like one usual does with any fighter. But no no no... same fighter... that is silly. Those are some of the arguments I'm talking about. Your rankings are all yours man.

Btw, we don't always agree but you're respectful and cool... and that matters more imo...

 

The Hagler Hearns fight was a fight where Al Bernstein said something wrong. He said "Hagler should turn to righty where he could block Hearns right and land his own left hook" But that means Hearns could land his right hand at an angle rather than straight on,, and I always thought hitting him when he is righty and Hagler might have been hurt badly, since the punch which hurt Hagler early, was from the side rather than straight down the middle. Later when Hearns hurt his right hand, he was trying to move to the right so he could punch sideways since he said later hitting him to the side hurt his hand more than hitting him straight down which the southpaw style made easier, but Hagler took it better. So Hearns tried to punch around rather than straight down the middle after he broke his hand.

 

Again, I see no wobbly legs there at all. I see a guy who was caught coming in flush, literally stop (with no shaky legs) have a look like ok, damn, he can hit and go right back at him seconds later. Then Hearns starts throwing like a mad man with lefts and rights from all angles that bounces of his gloves and top of his head. He felt it, it stung, but he wasn't wobbly nor badly hurt or even really hurt.

 

Is it still a fact that Duran did indeed fight at 154 before Hearns,Benitez and Leonard regardless of the again excuse that he was out of shape and only fought there because he had trouble making weight. Hearns fought at 154 also because he had trouble making welterweight. How is Duran any different than anyone else? Do you see what I mean? How is that beyond dumb or even reasonably dumb. I think what I am saying is significant to Duran not being this small guy, since he did not make lightweight, so he was growing or maturing into the higher weights. Obviously growing quicker than expected passing up 140.

He fought at 154.. Whether he was out of shape or not is just words. To use your words You could say how on God's Green Earth does it matter if Duran fought at 154 before them,, leaving out the out of shape since that is just an opinion and it really doesn't matter. Hearns could have been out of shape when he fought Ernie Singletary at middleweight not even 3 months after he fought Ray Leonard. When why is it significant Duran fought at 154 before those other 3? Because he was comfortable there, and any excuse he moved up to fight bigger guys is just that an excuse. Yes I think that significant. He fought decent guys in the 1990s Pazienza and Camacho, and challenged for a title with Joppy 12 years after he fought Hearns. 12 years. I never said he was prime, but I think he was still a top fighter in the early 1980s up to Hearns. After he took a year off an declined a little. but still managed to beat Barkley on style. So he jumped up in weight and all those guys had compromises, and they never complained, because they managed to beat greats also. Hearns beat Benitez and Duran. Leonard beat Hagler . But Duran lost to the top guys and he had excuses.. I don't really buy his excuses. If he could not beat the top tier, then he had a ceiling. Nothing wrong with that. Virgil Hill had a ceiling with Hearns and Jones. And also. you mention this spotty record which proves something. The fact is when a man loses, other guys see that and get ideas how to beat someone. They saw him lose to Ray and knew Duran was not as mentally strong as they thought,, and listen Kirkland Laing could move back and forward well, which was something Duran had trouble with. Give Laign a little credit. Duran did fight 17 more years after Hearns. 35 fights after Hearns .. Hearns was the midpoint of his career. That is significant. If a fighter is washed up he can fight another 35 times and 17 more years? Highly unlikely.

 

His right leg gives in, but I can your point if he was stung and says wow, let me back off and regroup, but I don't think so. I see the legs wobble and shaky. It is obvious. I still see the right leg dip and his legs shaky and wobbly as he goes into Hearns. Then Steele breaks them and he is jumping up and down to get his legs back, and the fact he rubs the area Hearns hit at 42 seconds of the video to me showed that was a heck of a force.. But to Marvin's credit he took it, and also Hearns had to punch straight because of the southpaw style, the punch which hurt Marvin was to the side, which is why I always thought Hagler as a righty might have been good for Hearns. And I think Marvin taking the punch straight on his neck muscles and being so solid helped him absorb that better than he would the punch from the side. Just a theory.

 

I think Hearns was throwing like a madman, and I agree he was because he saw Hagler hurt. So that is why I think had his hand not broke and had he been able to get another right to the side rather than straight on, he could have kept hurting Hagler. But Hagler to his credit was a southpaw and took a great punch and his head broke Tommy hand.

 

it looks like you're right. it doesnt look like Hagler was ever hurt especially since he went back on the attack right away. hurt fighters have to stay away to clear their head

 

Hearns tried both approaches and both approaches failed.

Hagler out bombed Hearns in round one

then out boxed him in round two in addition to softening him up

then, Marvin out paced Tommy until he fell in round 3

 

no way. you cant even tell at that angle. in fact, there was no dip because when Hagler comes in low like that, it means he was already ready to unload with hooks

When a fighter is hurt, they need time to clear their head; they dont go back on the attack right away

I only saw Marvin possibly hurt in the Hart fight from one of his lefts

 

Hagler didn't throw another punch for 12 seconds. Not exactly going right back on the attack.

 

Hagler landed 50 of 82 thrown 60 percent in round one. Hearns landed 56 of 83 67 percent . How was Hearns outbombed in round one? That sort of devalues much of what you say about the fight.

 

I think Hagler won, but I do think in a slower pace the fight could have been different. Look even with Canelo vs. GGG in Sept. We can have a different outcome. It matters how many punching opportunities each guy gets. GGG punches more and he could stop Canelo. but he opens himself up to counters. That is the way the sport is. I believe a slower pace and the fact Hearns did hurt him shows he would probably hurt him again in the rematch at a slower pace, which certainly it would be slower. I give Hagler the edge on style, not on greatness, which I think they are very close. My point was that Hagler's legs did indeed wobble and the video proves that. That was the question. Someone asked where did this happen in the fight, and it did happen and in my mind very clearly.. But to say Hagler was out on his feet. No. He was rocked, came back well..

 

None of this changes the fact that you make excuses for Leonard and Hearns.