Ray Arcel on Hagler - Hearns.

Hill?

wasnt he that guy who got bombed out by a body shot?

I felt bad for him

 

yes, and it really showed!

 

I saw Marvin's head being snapped back with jabs and blood streaming down his face. Marvin had to rely on punching rather than jabs. I bring up amateur experience because you said Hagler forgot more than Hearns knew. So that is pertinent. Hagler did not have the career of Hearns, and did not take the chances Hearns did by moving up. or he would have experience being pummeled by Spinks, which he was all too aware of.

 

I guess so.

we all did.

wow. your sure proved your point with this post.

 

so what ? He had blood streaming down his face in the Hamsho fight. fact is, Tommy's approach in round two had him boxing from long range and Marvin beat him from long range, then opened up on a tiring hitman

Tommy tried but Marvin upped the pace and Tommy couldnt deal with it

Not only was Marvin the better infighter, he was the better boxer, AND could set the pace Tommy couldnt keep up with

none of this phony "so and so moved up in weight and won the WBF, IBC, WBOO" crap. I like my fighters to prove their superiority in actual man to man showdowns

and like I said, if a man backs down from another man as Tommy did with Marvin in 82, it means he feared him

Hagler KO 3 Hearns being the result and that was after Marvin was edited to mere mortal dimensions and Tommy improving as a fighter a good 25%

 

That is not phony. Hagler should have moved up and done what he demanded other people to do. Move up and challenge Spinks. But he knew he would be knocked out. I think that shows a lack of courage. Tommy did not fear Marvin, Tommy wanted to fight Benitez first and won that title and it was a better move. He wanted any title and then Emanual figured it was better to fight at 154 and win that title. Marvin was a great fighter, and he was limited. Sugar Ray Leonard proved that, and the fact Hearns did better against Duran and Ray than Marvin did. Speaks for itself. And Marvin was never the same after he fought Tommy. What I think hurts Marvin is A. losing to Leonard in his last fight and B. never moving up in weight the way other greats did..

 

sorry charlie but Tommy backed out not once, but twice

speaking of limited, limited is when you face off with a relative newcomer like Norris, at a more comfortable weight class, after having stepped up to face the Lalondes and Durans of the world, are the prohibitive favorite to win, and have your ass handed 122 - 104 to Norris

it's almost as bad as ... KO By 3

 

seriously, this moving up to collect title is not all that it is cracked up to be. it helps but has its limits

Look what happened to Leonard. jumping up for a weight at 168, yet wiping out at 154

 

well I don't believe in catchweights or fighting for 2 titles at one time like Ray. Ray only did that to match Tommy, and no one bought it. Ray never was a light heavyweight. Hearns was. I don't believe in catchweights or agreed upon weights for titles. Moving up to get titles is ok. Tommy did it legit and if you find anyone who won titles against better guys it would be hard. Hearns beat Cuevas for Welt. Benitez for 154 and Virgil Hill for 175.. 3 hall of famers.

 

I sort of understand Ray's way of thinking. The way he stole fights and picked them like 2 titles in one night. Something tells me he set himself up to lose to Norris. Everything was against him. Moving down in weight and fighting a fast guy when he had slowed down and been inactive. The Lalondes of the world are not that great, but he had a good right hand. Well that same guy who had his ass handed to him as you say beat Hagler in 1987.. I do think losing to Ray hurt Hagler's legacy a little, but that was Marvin's fault.

 

well it proves something. It shows that you are not relying just on size or strength to win fights,that you can move outside your comfort zone and beat guys in their confort zone in a weight difference- so that will make you have to be tactical to win. Marvin never did that, and he was challenge by Spinks the way he challenged Hearns or Duran or Leonard. I don't think Marvin had to move up necessarily, but I think it hurts his legacy a little, but he cannot say he is as great as Hearns if he did not take the chances Hearns did. Hearns moved up and down and up and down again and still won against good and great fighters-Hearns beat better fighters than Marvin did. That is a fact. It cannot be disputed. Hagler defended, but he also lost to Sugar Ray Leonard, who moved up from welterweight in a fight he was hitting Ray, and even though he says he won, to me he gave away momentum and the fight by coming out right handed and then losing exchanges and Ray winning most of the rounds. Actually Tommy was a world champion at 154 but Roberto Duran was stripped of his title. That is a fact. Duran was WBA champ and Hearns WBC,, and actually when they fought I think Mark Medal was IBF, so he beat him. So if people talk about lineal or actual champions. Hearns was that.

 

Marvin wanted the big money fights, fights with those who could command an audience

Spinks COULD HAVE done that with a spectacular performance over Qawi but instead ruined his credibility with a performance that left us all yawning

dont get me wrong, Spinks was great or at least near great, but that unification didnt gain the public's notice

but the Hearns fight with Duran sparked public interest with a frightening knockout over Duran

Surprisingly, Marvin did NOT back down

and even MORE surprisingly, Marvin at an advanced stage of his career, beat up Hearns, at the very peak of HIS carrer - in THREE!

 

The Hearns that Marvin beat was better than the Leonard who decisioned a shot Marvin

Actually, I was not surprised as I was in attendance for Hagler's sparring with the Weaver triplets proving, Marvin was ready to be taken

 

yeah Hearns was better, but the style was Rays which was better for Hagler. Ray moved laterally and didn't engage with Marvin, so Marvin couldn't win the rounds. The Weaver triplets. I remember them. Floyd, Troy and something else

 

well Hagler was active and doing well in his career also. But I would have liked to have seen him test himself with Spinks.Had he beaten Spinks it would have added a lot to his legacy.