Ray Leonard's legacy

We might need a "Fantasy Forum" for guys like Rooster Robbi!

 

Welcome back, Bokaj! 'Tis a shame that our greeting is rooted in disagreement!

That's not relevant. Like any true measure, you have to consider rates, not gross numbers. The % of boxers out of a given population is not what it once was. This is due to greater wealth, redistribution of wealth (ex. welfare that has alleviated the sting of poverty at least here in the U.S), more opportunities in other sports and in society at large, less clubs, less gyms... etc

Not in the 40s. Joe Louis kicked the doors open that were padlocked before, during, and after Johnson.

Boxing has been an international sport for many decades. Look at the list of greats from the 20s, 30s, and 40s and you'll find PAcific Islanders, Asians, and Latinos. I would expect, however, that the Latinos, particularly Mexico, has remained fairly stable in terms of rate of boxers per population.

Again, I disagree. There is obviously a point of diminishing returns, but a man with 60 fights is going to handle a man with 18 fights, all else being equal. That's simply common sense.

Experience is a good thing. That's the point.

Yes, but I have repeatedely recognized the Latinos -who are carrying the sport in terms of fan base and especially in terms of level of skill.

 

Please don't be ridiculous. We all know 154 is closest to leonard's best weight. In fact, as he got older it was probably his best weight. That was his weight for the Howard fight.

No one can claim he was having problems making the weight if 160 is too high for him. You forget one other thing: Norris wasn't challenging for leonard's title. Leonard was challenging for Norris' title. Leonard made this fight. Didn't he know what weight he had signed for?

Besides, it wasn't like he took off 40 pounds in a couple of months.

What's more, Leonard showed no signs of decline in his last fight. Tim Ryan said on youtube "that was an absolutely masterful performance".

That is a f-a-c-t!!

Not only that but Ray won all 12 rounds no problem. He totally demoralized short, pudgy Duran.

Ray could do no wrong!

There wasn't one area you could point to and say Leonard was deficient here or there. For mobility he gets an A +. For speed I docked him a notch to A-. Stamina: no shortage there. He wasn't even breathing hard at the end of 12 rounds.

None of this indicates that leonard would be past his prime. I have asked anyone to point out where the deficiency was. To this day, everyone has declined to comment.

And since they won't I will. In all honesty I'll say Leonard was operating at 95% capacity. None of this five year layoff stuff holding him back. No, Leonard was fighting regularly depending on how many stiffs he could find. Sometimes twice a year!

Norris on the other hand had everything against him in this fight and still won. That is why he is rated over Leonard in the p4p rankings. It's only fair. he was 3-1 underdog and left no doubt to his superiority.

Once again: Terry Norris was clearly superior to leonard and no one can dispute it. Terry proved it in the ring where it counts and it doesn't matter how many times you deny it, Leonard will always be second best to Terry Norris.

Terry had more heart and courage and totally outwitted and out thought Sugar Ray. That's why Terry is the greatest super welter of all times!!

Even at the stare down, Leonard lost that too. Norris would look straight at him. Leonard wouldn't dare look up at him. The battle of the minds was won - Terry knew he couldn't lose.

People also like to talk about Leonard's vast edge in experience. That alone was enough to have won him the fight. I saw this fight with Leonard supoorters at a casino abd no one would even disputed Leonard would win. Norris was treated as more of an afterthought and that is what makes this win so mindboggling!

I was myself didn't want to come forward say I was picking Terry Norris but when the question came up I told them Terry would beat him. They didn't want to say anything to embarrass me since they had just met me.

Inside the Casino where we watched, I'll give you a hint at who thought Leonard would win: Everyone. Yet more proof why Leonard was still on top of his game. You see? No one was saying anything about Leonard being too old or that he wasn't what he used to be.

I later went up to these guys asking "what happened to your man?" No answer. Maybe it was too soon for them to formulate a good answer.

As with hagler I knew he was shot because I saw him in training. This was worse than Ali from the Jimmy Young fight or Holmes from the Witherspoon fight and pretty much like the Jeff Chandler from the Sandoval fight if anyone saw it.

Everyone has known for years I have claimed this. Last week John Thomas put me to the test: put up or shut up and I did. Now John speaks no more and will never question me again. And if he does, it's just to save face.

Enquirer broke contact and won't involve himself in a discussion with me because he knows he's powerless.

 

Or you coul start one all your own: Ray Leonard knocks out Terry Norris in boxing match.

 

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Terry Norris above Leonard on P4P ranking? That is special. :hi:

 

^Winner get bragging rights. Losers got the mournrs bench along with their fans.

 

Giving Terry Norris credit for destroying a shot to peices Ray Leonard I can almost deal with. Saying Norris is higher P4P than Ray is just plain silly. atsch

 

Who says Leonard was shot? Remember 3-1 favorite. :hey

 

People put ray ahead of Hagler on the basis of a close decision. I put Terry over Ray on the basis of a clear whipping. Fair is fair and I'm being perfectly fair, using your rules to judge them by.

 

I don't understand how that factors into whether or not Ray was a shot fighter. I've explained this to you before. All of rays competition since Hagler were stiffs except for a shot Hearns. Ray hadn't fought any live opponents in years, and he was being made to look good in last fight but a slow plodding "shot" Roberto Duran who had always looked awful against stick and move. You won't take any of that in, but regardless of what the odds were on the fight, Leonard was a shot fighter, and it was made even more evident in the Camacho fight.

People put ray ahead of Hagler on the basis of a close decision. I put Terry over Ray on the basis of a clear whipping. Fair is fair and I'm being perfectly fair, using your rules to judge them by

People put Ray ahead of Hagler not only based on their fight, but also Ray's all time great victories and his technical ability. Still, Hagler was defeated by a better fighter than the fighter Norris defeated.

 

Leonard wasn't shot because he was a 3-1 favourite. Hagler was a massive favourite against Leonard. Was he shot?

"who says Leonard was shot?" Everyone on the planet apart from yourself. Maybe not shot, but without any shadow of a doubt, none, he was past his prime.

 

Jones had to lose a lot of weight after Ruiz, and was possibly not very hungry after such an achievement. He also bounced back after his second loss to Tarver and recorded a win against Trinidad amongst others. Leonard never won again after the loss against Norris.

 

Marvin beat the better version of Hearns. That part is not even open for discussion.

Seriously, you must think I don't have eyes. Tommy looked malnourished in the leonard fight with just one major win-that's it.

Tommy was a monster in the Duran fight, in the Hutchings fight, the Hagler fight, the Schuler fight. He was blowing out legends and top contenders in no time flat. He may have been the greaest fighter yet until hagler made a believer out of him.

Who were the others? Benitez and Duran.

Benitez beat Duran and Tommy beat Wilfred. Hamsho also beat Wilfred. hagler beat them both in 3 rounds.

Hagler has a lot of great wins going back to the late 70's, one right after the other. Not just 3 like Leonard.

Moreover, Hagler didnt duck people the way Ray did. Instead of short pudgy Duran and hearns who was practically falling over at the start of their rematch, he should have taken someone strong like Nunn or McCallum if he's going to be active. Face it, Ray Leonard loves stiffs and the reason is he can't handle a man of quickness and slick moves like Norris. How many people Ray has fought who can the things that Norris do?

he has never faced anyone like Terry.

 

I think Leonard's performance in uno mas was convincing evidence he was anything but shot. Where are the signs? I saw none.

With Hagler v. Mugabi he was getting hit left and right from the opening bell. Marvin took punishment in every round. I can see that Hagler slowed tremendously and that it had come from the Hearns fight. Even in the Hearns fight Hagler was well known for having come down from his prime. That's why the hearns fight was almost a pick em fight.


Clancy's remarks that hagler could throw his left correctly as in the past tells you he's more than just a little off the mark. And that was before I watched him in sparring a year later. What remarks did you hear from the Duran fight that gave anyone the impression he was suspect?

I tell you what. Look at leonard and Hagler in their last two fights and tell me who looks better. Marvin with his faced swelled up wearing shades to cover his closed eye or leonard with one cut over his eye-that being from the one punch Duran landed in the fight.

I think the fact that Marvin was so slow and hittable was the only thing that brought leonard out of retirement. Remember? it even says so on the tape.

Sidenote: Selfkill and Enquirer will

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address this fact. According to them, taking my view is playing the part of devil's advocate.