Ray Mercer vs Sonny Liston

Theres no such division as SuperHeavy in the pro game.

That that BS back to "the Blog".

 

Who the **** did Mercer ever beat?

Im waiting

 

Absolutely. Liston isn't stopping Mercer. He could well win the fight, but on points imo.

 

That how I see it.And the most important thing is, Liston would not be able to intimidate Mercer, in any way, shape, or form.

 

Wayne Bethea all over again.

You can't bank on your durabilty against this man. Liston crushes Mercer's chin.

 

Then we'll bank on Lord Liston to do what Lennox Lewis, Tommy Morrison, Evander Holyfield, Tim Witherspoon, Francesco Damiani and Sir Bert Cooper couldn't.

 

Liston is a better finisher than all those guys.

Wayne Bethea is one of the most durable fighters of his time, he went the distance with Charles, Valdez, Cooper, Foley, Machen, Big Cat, Terrell, Mildenberger.

In 18 losses in his 9 year career, he was stopped by only one man. Not only stopped that one time in his prime but absolutely demolished in the first round while trying to stand up to his punches.

You don't bank on pure durability against Liston. He will hurt you, and he will finish you.

If Mercer ran into Liston and tried to walk in on him as he was prone do do in his prime, he would end up like Bethea with that one glaring KO blemish in an otherwise proven sturdy career.

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZQRExcO9aA[/url]

 

Maybe.. But being a better finisher only helps if you have the precursor of having your man badly hurt to begin with. Most of the guys I listed never did, with the exception of perhaps Morrison within the first two rounds, but that's one exception. If you'd like to expand upon that then fine. But can we also then expand upon Sonny having his jaw broken against Marty Marshall and quitting twice against Ali?

Of the eight men you just listed only Valdez and Williams stand out as big hitters, and Nino was past his prime.. This track record of durability doesn't quite size up to Mercer's survival of Lewis, Morrison, Witherspoon, Sir Bert, or Holyfield. It should also be noted that unlike Bethea, Mercer had something to fight back with. He demonstrated a good jab against Lewis and could also bang, whereas Bethea had no power.

Mercer not only survived the onslaught of bigger hitters than Bethea did, he also BEAT some of them. And has mentioned before, Ray didn't experience his first stoppage until he was already around 41 years of age, fighting inconsistently and facing a ferocious ATG hitter in his prime. It also took several rounds before the stoppage finally occurred.

Precisely why I'm not.. See some of the preceding comments I've made.

I think its a generalization to say that he'd just "walk" in on Liston. Maybe the Mercer who fought Bert Cooper with 15 pro fights would have. But as time went on, Ray's skills improved while his power and durability never faded... Not saying that Liston COULDN'T stop him.. But using Wayne Bethea as your one sole example is kinda ridiculous.

 

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZQRExcO9aA[/url][/QUOTE]


Yes now watch how Mercer handles a much bigger and well polished heavyweight hitter in his prime and fights back with equal effectiveness.

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FUDnAXzkcQ[/url]

 

-You are forgetting Holyfield dropped Mercer and had him pretty badly hurt.

-Machen was known as a boxer but he actually knocked out and stopped better fighters than Morrison, Damiani, and Spoon. He one punched KOed Valdez, ran over the durable McCurty, stopped the durable Jackson and DeJohn. KOed Holman. Cooper and Cooper are about equal with the hook. Charles had excellent power, even while on the decline. Foley was solid..etc.

-No doubt Mercer had more tools than Bethea. Cleveland Williams did as well. As did Valdez, Foley, Harris, Patterson...

-Mercer never ran into Liston.

-Bethea isn't the sole example. He's just an example of Liston blasting out a tough fighter that would otherwise went his whole career with no knockout losses, and only one knockdown. Kind of like Mercer until the Wlad fight.

 

Yes now watch how Mercer handles a much bigger and well polished heavyweight hitter in his prime and fights back with equal effectiveness.

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FUDnAXzkcQ[/url][/quote]

I recall Lewis loading up with single shots, mostly right hands.

The smaller Holyfield nearly had him out with a left hook. Morrison rocked him with left hooks.

Liston is a two handed hitter with a deadly left hand and doesn't let up on a hurt fighter.

 

Not really. In fact it almost looked like Mercer took a knee for a few seconds before getting up and getting right back in the fight. BTW if you haven't seen the full fight in its entirety its actually a high paced action packed contest.

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWH_TY7MJ4U[/url]

-

But my point is that he couldn't crack like the men Mercer faced whom Ray took shots from at point blank.. Ray fought the harder punchers than Bethea and often got better results. No getting around that.

agreed.

The same can be said in reverse, though I've already admitted that Liston would win.

In either case I disagree with your earlier comment which was " its the Bethea fight all over again" or something to that effect. I don't see very many similarities between Mercer and Bethea aside from their both being able to take a good punch, and certainly don't see this being a one round slaughter.

Not even a comparison I'd make. Wlad vs Mercer was highly on par with Cooney vs Norton - A young slugger vs a severely deteriorated ex contender. That bout should have no barring on Mercer's career abilities.

 

I think Sonny wins this fight on points.

To me, Sonny would fight him like he fought Besmanoff. Against a strong guy who stood his ground Sonny just boxed him and cut him up. Mercer would stand his ground but whilst he was a better fighter than Besmanoff, he could be outboxed. And Liston could box. Mercer also stood upright and whilst he liked to maul he is not a swarmer as such. He had a right hand so Sonny has to be careful. Ray was a lot better than Cleveland Williams too, but I am still confident Sonny can out box him to a safety first win.

Unlike most people I was most impressed with Mercer against Witherspoon rather than the Lewis fight. Lewis was not his best in that fight where as Witherspoon was good in their fight. I thought Tim could have won but it was close enough to show Mercer could hang with a master boxer like Liston.

Mercer is heavier and strong enough to neutralise much of the King Kong strength Sonny would show against smaller Roy Harris, westphal and Patterson but at his best Sonny had a great skill set and pace. He can still box Rays ears off for three whole minutes of a round with none of the 1990s spurt fighter pace.

I don't see Sonny knocking Mercer out but I do see Mercer knocking big cat Williams out.

 

-He lost his legs from the first left hook and was holding on, Holyfield had to muscle him off and hit him again, he went down to a knee and looked dazed. Nah, dude. He was not back in the fight, he was holding on after getting up and made it out of the last few seconds of the round. Arguable but I was left with the impression he was saved by the bell, even if he made it through the next two rounds.

-Arguable. Both met a decent gauntlent of punchers in their respective careers as I outlined.

Wayne was less consistent but also has his share of good wins, almost as many as Mercer. One was stopped once in 18 losses, the other twice in 7 losses, and fought roughly the same number of times. Mercer fought as an older man but turned pro at 28, when Wayne was already winding down..so..eh.

-Not sure if it would be one round or a few more, but by Bethea all over again, I just meant a durable tough guy being unable to stand up to Liston.

-Think you misunderstood what I wrote in both instances there, no big deal though.

 

Fair points. I just don't think that Mercer would be a cake walk for Liston. We at least agree on who wins.. That's enough.