Ray Mercer would blow Rocky Marciano's back out change my mind

Seems like you’ve made a pick to me.

 

So, let's say Bakole is 260 lbs in the 15 round era. Or 250. He's still a unicorn in the 50's. Would be in the 80's as well. Only in the very last years of the 20th century did we start to see fighters that size with that relative skill and speed.

6'3 210-220 lbs fighters that moved and boxed like Hunter was a non-entity before Ali.

Moore was, what, two inches shorter than Valdes? Three? And 20 lbs lighter? Rocky would give up some eight inches and about 60 lbs lean mass. And he would be doing that against many of the top HWs today.

Up close is not a safe distance against Bakole. He showed that quite clearly against Anderson.

Not saying for sure he would beat everyone in Rocky's era, though, just that the 250+ lbs fighters with relative good speed and skills to go with a great chin and mind numbing power didn't exist until the last three decades or so. And much, much smaller swarmers are the ones I'd give the least chance against them.

Bakole was just one name I threw out there, but we have Zhang, Dubois, Joshua, Kabayel etc as well. I know, Ruiz etc, etc and not saying they'd beat everyone pre 1980 or whatever, just that they would be freaks back then, something totally unseen before. Even Miller would be with his stamina for such a big guy.

And the worst style against much, much bigger men with serious power and who also know how to land it is being a swarmer. Today's division would just be quite unforgiving against fairly slow sub 200 lbs swarmers, I think.

 

Why is it laughable though I'm baffled ? Mercer is 50 pounds bigger than Marciano with a 10 inch reach advantage how is it laughable to think Mercer wins ?

How many Heavyweights have beaten world class fighters who have 50 pound weight advantage giving away 10 inches in reach ? Give me one example of it happening ? Especially by out slugging the other fighter ?

No one is saying no Heavyweight of the past couldn't beat some bigger Heavyweights but you also have to take into account styles. Marciano is swarmer with a very small reach he can't outbox bigger stronger Heavyweights like Usyk did with Joshua, Fury, for example. Marciano has to rely on coming forward trying to over power his opponents. And I fail to see how hes going to achieve that against much bigger stronger world class Heavyweights.

Theres literally no logic behind having 185 pound 67 inch reach small Cruiserweight a favourite against world class Heavyweights with a 50 pound weight advantage and a 10 inch reach advantage.

As I said I wish people would stop living in a fantasy world believing a Cruiserweight with 67 inch reach beats modern Heavyweights. Make hypothetical fights that are realistic as I said vs Light Heavyweights/Cruiserweights his own size.

 

No one ever denied that Tommy had quicks and power in his offense. Were that enough to be great, greatness he would have been. But we saw the ceiling of what that brought.

 

Again you're missing the point apart from a shot Joe Louis and a fat Don Cockell who was a Light Heavyweight with a glandular problem the others were journeyman fighters with losing records.

Being a big man and being a world class big man is completely different.

Marciano has 0 wins against a prime world class 200+ pound Heavyweight.

 

Yes and this is where people are somehow not grasping the fact about styles mate.

Of course smaller Heavyweights can beat bigger Heavyweights but you have to take into account the stylistic match up. Marciano relied on his aggression to over power his opponents and that will be alot less effective against world class Heavyweights who are much bigger and considerably stronger.

People are laughing at me for thinking Marciano would have an incredibly tough time against an iron chinned world class 230+ pound Heavyweight with a 10 inch reach advantage which I find baffling to be quite honest.

 

So the man who out jabbed Lennox Lewis and won an Olympic Gold Medal doesn't have "skill" got you.

 

Yes, it is. I usually stay out of these fantasy h2h threads, and this seems to have been made to bait Rocky fans, which I like even less.

But when reality starts to give way and the bigger guys Rocky fought are compared to the top fighters of today and there's seemingly no problem for a 185 pounder to plod right into someone like Bakole who treated 250 lbs Anderson like he was a child, it gets harder to stay out.

 

I just wish people would pit Marciano in realistic match ups because you then you wouldn't get these frustrating debates where people are too nostalgic. And then you're having to try an rationalise why a 185 pound slugger with 67 inch reach can't be successful in modern Heavyweight in which I think would be plainly obvious to be quite frank.

I have nothing against Marciano at all and I'd much rather debate better match ups that are realistic for him against Light Heavyweights/Cruiserweights his own size. Then you won't get these silly debates that carry on for page after page.

And speaking of the above I think I'm done with this debate aswell I think I've made my points quite clear and theres nothing else to add.

 

Naturally he would be something to look at. Just like Abe Simon, Buddy Baer, Primo Carnera, Ray Impelietere, or Victorio Campolo all were. Except his skill would be nothing to marvel at. He has good body mechanics and strings combinations together when you stand in front of him, but other than that in an era that have seen Loughran, Stribling, Tunney, Conn, Louis, and the likes, he would be bang average. Granted would bring other attributes to the table to work with at world level: reach, size (because it does matter), good punch. Never claimed Bakole would not fare well in the era, rather pointing at adjustements demanded by the realities of boxing format.

I reckon 260 is generous though. He was 256 against Hunter and slowed down considerably later on. He is not Primo or Simon who could carry that weight with unnatural stamina. Strict 12 to 15 rounds training schedule would likely trim him down to the weight he carried early on in his career. For the better given the times.

As for the show me.. paragraph. You rarely find that much of a weight difference in the context of the same era. Parker-Zhang was 40lbs or so of difference, and the magic 4 was usually the gap in matches like Frazier-Mathis, with Louis-Simon, Louis-Baer I and II, and Louis-Carnera possibly being a fifty pounds difference if I remember correctly. The demand to show me somebody slug out at that difference is rather ridiculous. Swarming is not slugging. Inside fighting is not slugging. Going forward is not slugging. The smaller fighters do not slug it out with the larger boys, unless you want to watch Moore-Valdez and call it slugging. Louis-Conn and Tunney-Dempsey are two excellent examples of clever, cute, and cagey outside boxers moving in to strategically smother their much more dangerous seek-and-destroy opponents. Up close is in fact one of the safest places to be at the right time.

Excuse moi, but I am absolutely not touching the subject of Marciano.

 

I think not only Bakole, but Zhang, Dubois, Joshua, Kabayel and Fury all look way better than they do as overall packages. They're clearly not invincible, but way better imo. Objectively they are bigger on average, but I also think they look much better as whole packages.

So we just have to differ there.

And again, I specifically said that being a much, much smaller swarmer against them is a bad stylistic match-up and you throw Tunney in there as some sort of reply. Why?

That's a whopping 4 lbs difference right tthere. And it also misses my actual quote which was: "So, let's say Bakole is 260 lbs in the 15 round era. Or 250. "

Parker hardly slugged with Zhang, though. The times he stood still in front of him, Zhang put him down with glancing punches.

And again, haven't said Zhang can't be beat by smaller fighters. Just that being much, much smaller and a swarmer isn't great against him. Parker would be a giant in the 50's and even he didn't try to swarm Zhang. So weird example.

And where on earth do Mathis fit in here? He was just a very fat 6'3 fighter with no power. I have not specified it at every single mention perhaps, but I think I made pretty clear that I have talked about big punchers that are 250 lbs in a fairly lean state. And who have good relative skill and speed. Those started to come around Lewis and are in good supply today.

This was a quote from a reply to you "just that the 250+ lbs fighters with relative good speed and skills to go with a great chin and mind numbing power didn't exist until the last three decades or so."

But you missed that as well? Because Mathis sure as **** doesn't fit that criteria.

Then I'm not sure what we're really discussing, because that was whom I applied the reasoning to.

I mean, I think it applies fairly well to Frazier as well, but distinctly less so to Tyson with his speed and chin. But Rocky was the starting point.

 

The guy lost to an over the hill Jesse Ferguson, FFS. Was made a fool out of by a creaking dinosaur Larry Holmes. If you think he’s going to beat Rocky Marciano, good luck to you. I’ve got more reasonable things to discuss.

 

Ney, you know that the Mercer that was lackluster early on was massively different from the man he was during his fights with Holyfield and Lewis, right?

 

65 lbs weight difference for Carnera, 53 for Simon.

 

An old Holmes that won 4 or 5 rounds against a prime Holyfield and was still very much world class.

Yes I'm also done with a subject where people live in a fantasy world and can't comprehend that a 67 inch 185 pound Cruiserweight wouldn't be successful against world class Heavyweights with 50 pound weight advantage and 10 inch reach advantage.