This has been done here a few times I'm positive, but what subject hasn't? Another thread here got me to thinking about the vast chasm of difference sometimes shown in the posts here regarding the proper ranking of Sugar Ray Robinson at middleweight. Some say he's the greatest thing ever there and rank him #1. Others (like me) take a more holistic approach to his standing there, and consider the numerous losses at the weight over time, and dock him accordingly. I must say I don't really rank fighters as a practice so can't tell you where I rank him personally, but I can tell you it would be below the likes of Greb and Monzon. Perhaps even Hagler. Anyway a lot of this discussion might eventually become more about the theory behind how we rank fighters, rather than Robinson himself. I remember an exchange McGrain and I had a few years back where the basic discussion centered around me looking at his career as a whole versus his view of what he saw in the sixth Lamotta fight, and how he couldn't envision another middleweight looking that good, so he ranked him at or near #1. I'm paraphrasing there, but that's what I took from it. For me, as highly as I agree one must rate his showing against Lamotta in 1951, that wasn't the only fight he ever had at the weight, and he was, to be frank...….uneven there. Yes, a lot of that has to do with his age and mileage. I wouldn't argue to the contrary. I merely think that one must rate the body of work we see and the results. The fact that he was old then doesn't enter into the discussion. If he had held his own in the last couple rounds against Maxim for example, and then immediately vacated the title never to fight there again, would you rank him as the greatest light-heavy to ever live? Simply based on his being Sugar Ray Robinson? Of course not. What if he'd lost the 175-pound title in the ring after a defense or two, and then regained it and lost it again. Probably not, at least I'd hope not. Then why apply the same method when ranking him as middleweight? Thoughts?
- Definitely in contention for number 1 H2H. - For overall ranking, I guess it depends on how much leeway you're willing to give. I don't really consider anything after 1960 in my ranking of him, but that's subjective. Upto this point I counted Robinson had 90 MW bouts (I didn't count the 148, 149lbs as those are too close to WW). His record is 79 wins, 7 losses, 3 draws and one no contest. Of the 7 losses, one to Paul Pender was a robbery, and of the 3 draws, the one to Gene Fullmer was again a robbery. So we could have his record at 81-6-2 with 1 NC. This is until 1960. Significant wins, in chronological order: Lamotta x5 Artie Levine Georgie Abrams California Jackie Wilson Henry Brimm Steve Belloise Robert Villemain x2 Jose Basora* Bobo Olson x4 Holly Mims Randy Turpin Rocky Graziano Rocky Castellani Gene Fullmer x2 ** Carmen Basilio Paul Pender ** * - Basora was pretty far gone, but a 1st round knockout is impressive either way. ** - officially they are not wins, but majority of people at ringside felt Ray won both fights. Conclusion. I think his MW record stacks up well against Greb, Monzon and Hagler and looks better than most other ATGs, we can also see on film he is a H2H beast. I think both factors can see him ranked at or near the top. I personally prefer tiers and I have him in the top one with Greb, Monzon and Hagler.
I always felt that had Robinson stuck around between 1952 and 1955 he’d have held onto the title as long as he wanted during that period. The fact that he took nearly 3 years out of the ring, came back and won the title a further 3 times is pretty remarkable though.
Great post. I did a breakdown of his middleweight record a while back and our numbers look similar. Like you, I didn’t count contests that were slightly over the welter limit if the other fighter was weighing in around the same but Robinson fought a lot of middleweight contests during his welterweight years. Here’s how I had it: There are three distinct periods in Robinson's middleweight career: 1. The pre-title years: these run from 1942 to 1950 (when he is principally thought of as a WW) and start from his first official MW contest, his first fight against Jake LaMotta up until his final fight of 1950. 2. The title years: these run from his MW title fight against LaMotta on Feb 14, 1951 up to 1958 and his second fight with Carmen Basilio. 3. The post-title years: these run from December 1959 and his fight with Bob Young, when he had been stripped of official recognition of the NBA middleweight title after a 20-month layoff through all his fights in the 1960s and up to his final fight against Joey Archer in November 1965. The breakdown is below. Fights total: 133 Wins: 107 (63 KOs) - Losses: 18 - Draws: 6 - No contests: 2 Pre-title middleweight record (1942-1950): 57 fights: W54 (33 KOs) - L1 - D2 Middleweight record during title years (1951-1958): 25 fights: W21 (13 KOs) - L4 - NC1 Post-title middleweight record (1959-1965): 47 fights: W32 (17 KOs) L13 - D4 - NC1
This is very impressive. The numbers alone, even before including the names or the manner of victory already begins to tell the story.
He did but I was only including his fights at middleweight. From memory, I think he had 20 fights at lightweight (all wins) and 46 at welterweight (all wins) plus the one fight with Joey Maxim at light-heavyweight.
SRR has to be compared with other middleweights prior to his multi year retirement. This was the best SRR at this weight. Watch his destruction of Graziano from a single right hand to show how destructive he was. This Robinson was a top tier elite ATG of mammoth proportions. Very few if any had his overall skill level.
He was 30 plus when he moved up so his absolute peak was clearly at 147 .. still he was exceptional .. the version that beat Jake and Rocky was still a devastating fighter with speed, power, brains, stamina, heart and chin .. I say he decisions Hagler ( basically could do everything Ray Leonard did at 160 but better ) not sure about Greb or Monzon ..
Top 2 at MW imo, I've never done an in-depth H2H at MW so I can't say but he'd probably rank highly. Helluva record for a WW
