Ray Robinson & Henry Armstrong Duckers?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by mcvey, Jul 9, 2018.



  1. klompton2

    klompton2 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    For the umpteenth time: Ring magazine ratings were unofficial and have absolutely ZERO bearing on who should have fought who and more importantly Ring ANNUAL ratings are even less reliable because they are nothing more than a snapshot of that moment and in time of Rings opinion.

    Frankly, if you want to nitpick using your criteria you can see that Robinson had just moved into the WW class just prior to these rankings posted in 1941 by beating the guy who at that time was the number one contender in 2 successive fights. Oh and he wasnt champion unlike Dempsey so he had no responsibility beyond getting the fights needed to attain the highest rating possible which he did.

    Just before your 1942 rankings were released Robinson defeated Izzy Jannazzo twice in successive fights. Janazzo has beaten Cocao Kid twice in the preceding two years and was 1-1-1 with Holman Williams. “But, but, but... deflect deflect deflect”

    For your 49 rankings Robinson was the welterweight champ and thats where his only responsibility lay. Its notable that he had already defeated the mw champ and within a year of this ranking would have defeated the #3 and #5 ranked MWs while also defeating the #1,#2, #3, and #7 ww contenders (from this ranking). So he was fighting guys in both divisions that he was either obligated over Towne or rated higher than him.

    The same as above can be stated for 1950.

    You can make a case that Robinson should have defended against Sands if you dont understand the logistics of Sands living on the other side of the world and the fallout from Robinson-Turpin. But in reality based on your ratings Sands was only knocking on that door for 1950 when Robinson was still ww champ. After that Turpin leap frogged Sands and of course he was who Robinson was fighting. Criticizing Robinson for not fighting Towne in early 1953 when the annual rating for 1952 was published is silly because Robinson was retired by that point.

    Again, in none of these instances can you draw a parallel with Dempsey ducking two guys for years who clearly considered his most reliable contenders, particularly Wills who fought elimination after elimination. This was never the case with Robinson or Armstrong. At no time did they clearly avoid a guy who for an extended period of time was considered their top challenger and had wide public support as such. Its a false equivalency thats being attempted to deflect from the fact that the beloved Dempsey did.
     
  2. mcvey

    mcvey Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Not my criteria ,and the ratings were provided by the author not me. I'm not drawing parallels I'm just illustrating how things can be shaded.
    I don't equate Robinson with Dempsey or Johnson, they just happen to be the two accused of ducking every week here.I could just as easily have said Zivic,Zale, or Graziano.
    You're ascribing motives to me I don't have, simply because I really couldn't give a flying **** what anyone thinks here.. Its just a source of entertainment. I only get the arse ache when I see deliberate lies from mongs like Mendoza
     
  3. edward morbius

    edward morbius Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I don't know how serious you are, but Robinson wasn't the champion for the division you are quoting for most of these years.

    In 1941, Robinson entered the year still a teenager. He had 20 fights, including wins over Angott, Zivic, and Servo, weighing as little as 135 for Max Shapiro on 9/19/1941. He was 137 for the 137 lb. Angott in July.

    in 1942, Robinson didn't fight the #4 guy, the Cocoa Kid, but he was personally the #1 contender, and he would fight the #2 and #3 contenders, Henry Armstrong and Jackie Wilson.

    I missed that Robinson was the #1 middleweight contender in 1949, but as a contender he had beaten both the champion and the #5 contender. Why he must fight the #6 man I will leave up to you. He would soon fight the #3 man, Villemain.

    In 1950, Robinson was still a contender at middleweight.

    That brings us to 1951 and Dave Sands. Why didn't Sands get a shot? Don't know, but he was stopped by Yolande Pompey in London in November, which might have derailed him.

    The most valid criticism of Robinson might be not fighting a rubber match with Turpin, but going for Maxim instead. Still I can understand the motivation. Only Fitz and Armstrong had been triple champions. It would have been a great capstone on Robinson's career.

    *If the point here is that one can criticize anyone for anything, of course this can be done. But it doesn't follow logically that valid criticisms are somehow invalid because unfair criticisms can be made.

    **there are mentions of Johnson going for the money, and Dempsey making big money w/o fighting at all. Fine, this might make them good businessmen, but it doesn't make them great champions. Both managed to avoid the top contenders. Johnson has the great run from 1903 to 1910 to prop up his reputation. Dempsey is far less secure on that basis.
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2018
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  4. Jel

    Jel Active Member Full Member

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    That was what I'd assumed was the point of this thread - not to disparage great fighters but to show how any fighters record can be skewed. If it can be done to Robinson, then no fighter is immune.
     
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  5. mcvey

    mcvey Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Can you find anywhere in my posts where I specified he had to be champion?
    I believe Lastarza ducked loads of contenders, he never won a title.

    What would you rather be rich , healthy, and considered an average champ ,or poor , living on handouts and considered a great one?
    Robinson pulled out of two fights with Cocoa Kid and did the same to Belloise twice,the prime Belloise not the version he did fight.
    Robinson never fought a single member of Murderers Row.Coincidence?
     
  6. mcvey

    mcvey Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    You got it!!!!
     
  7. Bokaj

    Bokaj Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    As have been said earlier, Burley and C. Kid weren't in Ray's division while he was a champ, and seemingly only 1 respectively 2 years as fellow contenders, so there's noting to criticise there really.

    Maybe that Sands fellow in that case.

    No champion is above criticism, but Dempsey's reign was poor to the point of vile. Not only did he not defend against the best contenders, but he just sat on the title not defending against anyone for 3 years. As we all know.

    Johnson's title opposition seems poor to me and he went two years without making a defence at all and he had a draw he didn't settle afterwards.

    Robinson's title reigns weren't without flaws obviously, but nothing like the above.
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2018
  8. Bokaj

    Bokaj Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Sure, many of the white champions in the 30's and 40's did some atrocious ducking. Charles not getting a shot at the LHW title is downright criminal. But they aren'rt as high profile as Johnson and Dempsey, and therefore get more of a pass, I suppose. Or just that people can't even be bothered.

    If there's another high profile HW champion that gets a pass, I think it is Frazier. Only fighting two cans in the two years after FOTC then turning up in poor shape to be crushed by Foreman... And how George even managed to be nr 1 contender ahead of Ali for that one just boggles the mind.
     
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  9. mcvey

    mcvey Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Johnson had a broken arm in the drawn fight.
    Couldnt he have fought them when he and they were challengers ,or was that illegal?
     
  10. edward morbius

    edward morbius Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    "Can you find anywhere in my posts where I specified he had to be champion?"

    Well, I thought it was implied by this line---"Whilst Ray was champion the following men were ranked."

    "Robinson never fought a single member of Murderer's Row. Coincidence?"

    I think it is because Murderer's Row is made up of guys from the middleweight to heavyweight ranks during the war years. Robinson was a welter then. The top rated black welters during Robinson's time as a welter were Henry Armstrong, Jackie Wilson, Tommy Bell, and Kid Gavilan. Robinson fought all these men. Gene Burton is the one highly rated black welter he missed, but Burton lost to Bernard Docusen and Robinson defended against Docusen.

    "the prime Belloise not the version he did fight"

    Well the version he did fight was on a winning streak and had handed Robert Villemain, the undefeated #3 middle contender, his first loss earlier that year. Belloise had to be rated near the top of the division. He was only 30. Besides, seriously, Robinson was only the welter champion. It was the fight with Belloise which moved him into the middle ranks. The non-title fight at Yankee Stadium drew 28,000, so fans apparently thought Belloise was still a strong contender.
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2018
  11. mcvey

    mcvey Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Several of the MR fought from welter up to light heavy.

    Cocoa Kid was ranked in the top ten as either a light ,welter or middle weight for 81 months between 1933 -1947.Title shots none.
    Holman Williams was ranked at welter 37/39 .
     
  12. edward morbius

    edward morbius Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    "Cocoa Kid was ranked in the top ten as either a light, welter, or middleweight for 81 months between 1933 and 1947. Title shots none."

    And which division was the Cocoa Kid ranked in which Robinson was champion? And Robinson didn't even turn pro until 1940, so what does 1933 and such have to do with Ray. You make a lot of Robinson pulling out of fights, but if he was ducking, why tentatively agree to the fights in the first place? It was widely known that Robinson and his management were hard-boiled on financial issues. If the money was not paid, they were quick to go elsewhere. The bottom line with all this stuff is that Robinson was not just another talent, but a unique talent whose talent carried him past obstacles lesser fighters couldn't get past. Same with Joe Louis.

    "Holman Williams was ranked at welter 37/39"

    My word. Robinson was a teenager who had not even turned pro. Ross and Armstrong were the champions. I haven't studied Armstrong's defenses and whom he fought and did not fight, but he was certainly an active champion. But my defense here is of Robinson. As a middle, Holman Williams might well have shafted by the war and the title being on ice, but in 1946 he lost to Cerdan and LaMotta which dropped him out of the top echelon at middle.
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2018
  13. mcvey

    mcvey Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    The title of the thread is Robinson & Armstrong you seem to be focused solely on Robinson.
     
  14. Bokaj

    Bokaj Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Of course he could, but I wouldn't use "duck" for challengers not meeting each other. Well, that would perhaps be if someone is ducking out of a title eliminator, but I don't think that was the case.
     
  15. mcvey

    mcvey Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I'd use it and do .Graziano ducked several middles .Zale ducked several middles.
    Lastarza ducked lots of contenders.
    Wilder is ducking everyone!
     

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