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Ray Robinson & Henry Armstrong Duckers?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by mcvey, Jul 9, 2018.



  1. mcvey

    mcvey Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I'd use it and do .Graziano ducked several middles .Zale ducked several middles.
    Lastarza ducked lots of contenders.
    Wilder is ducking everyone!
     
  2. Bokaj

    Bokaj Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    "Ducking" is a widely used term on this forum and there are no set definition. But it's most commonly used when a champion doesn't meet his his best Challengers. It can be in the form of refusing a mandatory (Bowe to Lewis) but doesn't have to be. And that's very reasonable. If you're going to call yourself champion you have to prove you really are by facing the best out there.

    With all the different belts, the situation has become more muddled. Because you want the beltholders not only to face the mandatories for that particular organisation, but also try to unify. In those cases it often becomes a point of contention who's ducking who (DM/RJJ, Pac/PBF and now Wilder/Joshua).

    But if you have an undisputed champion, I don't think that a contender is obliged to face all other contenders out there. If there are two contenders that are clearly above the rest an eliminator might in demand to decide who should get the title shot. Sometimes it's in the form of a tournament. And yes if a contender refuses this, you can perhaps speak of ducking in some manner (but this seems to be a rare occurence - the one instance I can think of right off is in that case Frazier refusing to take part in the tournament for Ali's title).

    But I don't think it's a duck if the nr 1 contender hasn't faced everyone else in the top 10.
     
  3. mcvey

    mcvey Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Nor do I ,but if a champ or contender misses out most of the other contenders sonething's wrong yes?
    Since I mentioned him lets look at Lastarza.During his time as a ranked fighter he somehow missed the following ranked men:
    Louis
    Charles
    Walcott
    Oma
    Thompson
    Savold
    Bivins
    Valentino
    Agramonte
    Maxim
    Baksi
    Williams
    Baker
    Dunlop
    Harrison
    Neuhaus
    Satterfield
    Wallace
    Valdes
    Walls
    Gardner
    Woodcock
    Henry
    That's a lot of names to be missing don't you agree?
    I say he ducked some of them .
     
  4. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    In the 1930s and 40s Champions generally fought who they were contracted and paid the most to fight. The big offers mainly came in from big promoters, foremost of them was Mike Jacobs - who had a virtual monopoly.
    Mobsters were also instrumental in helping fighters get shots.

    I don't know the deal with Ezzard Charles being ducked by the LHW champions.
    Lesnevich was champion when the war ended.
    I do know that mob influence helped Billy Fox (a black fighter) get two shots at "white champion" Gus Lesnevich for the title, and that Billy Fox had a dubious string of KO wins and at least one famous white fighter was persuaded to take a dive for Billy Fox.
    Lesnevich also defended twice against Freddie Mills, a British fighter, and I believe he was paid big money to do so.
     
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  5. mcvey

    mcvey Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Yes Mills who had been stopped by Lloyd Marshall who was spotting him significant weight.Jack Solomons virtually bought the title for Mills.
     
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  6. Bokaj

    Bokaj Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Yes, boxing was in an atrocius state in many ways during these decades, I agree with that. So called champions could avoid the most dangerous challengers with nothing really being made about it.

    Actually the exploits of Armstrong and Robinson, together with Louis, is probably the main thing that somewhat remedied the situation.
     
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  7. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    True but I suppose it's the same thing today, with so many belts.
    Fighters vacate one title and go to pick up another title or division, often to much ballyhoo and celebration.
    Every gets a chance to pick up a belt, but they become so devalued, lots of fighters still miss out on the meaningful title fights.
     
  8. Bokaj

    Bokaj Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    That is true. But at least they're known as "belt holders" and not champions.
     
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  9. Rock0052

    Rock0052 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    The elephant in the room is the vast, vast majority of wins are taken at face value when we evaluate the era. Meanwhile, we freely acknowledge the mafia had a huge impact on the sport at the highest levels as many of the powerbrokers were connected.

    I understand that nobody likes what implications I'm getting at, but it seems impossible for the real world to fit both viewpoints simultaneously.
     
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  10. edward morbius

    edward morbius Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    My post here is satirical. I admit it is a reductio ad absurdum.

    Here are fighters rated in The Ring annual rankings or active between 1969 and 1977

    Jimmy Ellis
    Jerry Quarry
    Leotis Martin
    Mac Foster
    Sonny Liston
    Oscar Bonavena
    Al Jones
    Henry Cooper
    Cleveland Williams
    Zora Folley
    Jose Urtain
    Jose Garcia
    Floyd Patterson
    Jack Bodell
    Joe Bugner
    Ernie Terrell
    Earnie Shavers
    Henry Clark
    Larry Middleton
    Duane Bobick
    Randy Newman
    Larry Holmes
    Howard Smith
    Johnny Boudreaux
    Stan Ward
    Kallie Knoetze
    Alfredo Evangelista
    Leon Spinks
    Gerrie Coetzee

    and fighters rated in the Ring Annual Rankings between 1990 and 1997

    Mike Tyson
    Razor Rudduck
    Buster Douglas
    Tim Witherspoon
    Carl Williams
    Francesco Damiani
    Riddick Bowe
    Ray Mercer
    Tony Tucker
    Lennox Lewis
    Alex Garcia
    Michael Bentt
    Oliver McCall
    Phil Jackson
    Mike Hunter
    Herbie Hyde
    Henry Akinwande
    Jorge Luis Gonzalez
    Lionel Butler
    Bruce Seldon
    Frank Bruno
    Alexander Zolkin
    Andrew Golata
    David Tua
    Ike Ibeabuchi
    David Izon

    What do these long, long lists have in common. They didn't get to fight George Foreman. What a list of ducks. And Foreman wasn't just another contender. He is often listed as a top five all-time great. Many and perhaps most, including myself, list Foreman as a top ten all-time great. Almost all probably put him the top 15 or 20. And look at all the guys he didn't fight. It dwarfs LaStarza's ducks. And these are big ducks--Holmes, Lewis, Bowe, Liston, Patterson,Terrell, Tyson, Shavers.

    Of course Foreman would easily beat some of these guys. Fights with others couldn't have been or weren't made for various reasons. But no doubt Foreman's resume would look better with the likes of Holmes and Tyson and Lewis among his victims, wouldn't it.

    *there are so many names here that if Foreman actually fought someone and I missed it, I apologize up front.
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2018