Ray Robinson vs Marvin Hagler

How exactly are you all measuring Robinson's physical strength ?

Hagler looked small-framed to me, for a middleweight. Lots of muscular development though.
It makes me laugh when he's considered significantly bigger than Ray Leonard or Thomas Hearns.
Hearns was HUGE, for a welter, and for a middle.

 

I think Hagler would have carried 168 pretty well, he strikes me as a none weight drainer but another 8lbs and being able to eat more meat/carbs and get his strength up may have given him a new lease of life as he aged. He probably would have gone up if in a parallel universe all the big fights were at 168 rather than WWs coming up in weight (yes I know 168 wasnt around in his time either)

Lamotta himself was typically at 168 at LHW wasn't he. LHW certainly didn't suit him when he lost his usual strength advantage

 

He could hit, but mentioning him as one of only two men who could knockdown Hagler, and bearing in mind the amount of Middleweight punchers we have, you mention him.

I don't think no-one could imagine Bennie Briscoe being KO'd, but Valdez turned that trick.

It would be about 5lbs and he never was one for using strength, or engaging it for that matter, because of this he was pretty suited to moving up weights.

:good

People just can't get their head round that someone is natural for a weight.

 

So who's got more explosive power than McClellan actually at MW that we have film of? Steward considers McClellan to be 1 of the biggest hitters, 1 of the biggest waste of talent in history and by all accounts he used to batter Tony Tucker in sparring

And as opposed to Bodhi picking Monzon who clearly wasnt as powerful in his own era as say Hurrican Carter (now he could hit but you could see them coming), if you compare their respective efforts against Griffith

I actually don't think Hagler going down is so unlikely as many on here do

 

So who exactly did McLellan show this amazing power on? What iron-chinned guys did he KO, that would say that he could knock down Hagler? He hurt Benn but could not put him down again, and Benn was vulnerable.

At least Robinson has a one-punch KO of Gene Fullmer, that I cited.

 

I am interested in it. I have always said a fighter will be at his best when he fights at a weight comfortable to him. I think Fitzsimmons is a better Heavyweight than he was a Middleweight (by the era's standards) because of this.

Take Buchanan he was a natural Lightweight he weighed around 132-133lbs normally and could weigh in lighter. Do you think he would have had the same success as Super-Featherweight? I think he would have lacked that stamina.

Pacquiao is a different case though, I actually think he is fighting a lot above his natural weight say it is around 135-140lbs he is putting on weight to fight. I think he is a fighter like Burley who could do better against bigger opponents.

 

It is good IMO. Better for safety as well.

What so that was a SBW fight with one of the competiters weighing in as a Lightweight?

 

Eugene Hart managed to stumble Hagler, but he recovered intelligently and very quickly. Hart was a huge middleweight himself and i'd say he punched just as hard as McClellan, he just wasn't as durable and a class below. He was the same build as McClellan too.

It was pure power from Hart and he dealt with it very well, it would be pure power from McCllellan too and i think he'd deal with it fine. Head on power i don't see troubling Hagler. Speed and superb punch placement, catching him off gaurd is the only calibre of puncher i see putting him down(not counting fluke shots) and probably the only men with enough of these attributes are Robinson and Jones Jr

 

Benns chin became pretty solid at 168 as he matured. Benn said McClellans power was far worse than when he was hit in the face with a pick axe and by far the hardest puncher he'd faced, Benn was shot after that fight. McClellan didn't land that much on Benn so couldnt put him away but your wrong he put Benn down a second time around the 8th I believe. Jackson was an elite and no one did that to JJ before. Mugabis a good win, he was knocking out gatekeepers/journeymen in the first that were going the distance or late rounds with other world champions

What you guys around here confuse is raw power and accumulation knock outs that scores more KOs over top opponents. McClellan would do it with 1 punch early in the fight over fresh opponents. You can play the same game with Ernie Shavers 'who did he knock out that was that good anyway'

So who hits more explosively on film, the only with an argument is probably Julian Jackson. I certainly don't think Hearns did so Hagler is up against a bigger puncher here

 

Benn could still be KO'd though and McLellan failed to do so in arguably his toughest test. Yes, McLellan hit hard but he is completly unproven as an elite puncher and quite frankly the evidence we do have does not make it look likely he is an elite puncher IMO

McCallum took Jackson out, are you now going to start saying now that McCallum could take Hagler out?

Mugabi was past his best and his punch resistance had gone.

Robinson was an elite puncher who took top class guys with good chins out with one punch and often early. Who do you think hits harder Robinson or McLellan?

As McGrain said McLellan gets overrated as a puncher.

I think Robinson, Hearns, Jackson, Valdez all hit harder than McLellan.