Ray Robinson vs Marvin Hagler

There are pluses and minuses to weight draining, gain 10lbs of water and be stronger/heavier in the ring but drain too much and your weight drained, weak and exhausted.

Allot of P4P fighters over the last 20years have been drainers. Margarito, Cotto, Mosley all add around 10 or more pounds at 147. Pacquaio gained a shed load of weight when he was fighting below 135. Morales was a big weight drainer and benefited from it. Martinez I think was 168 in the ring at 160 so not a small MW at all

None weight drainers today are more the exception than the rule, and usually because they are good enough to get away with it

 

Well, the recent Bute-Bradley fight you had a cw fighting a lhw for a smw belt. Ridiculous IMO.

 

I don´t know about hitting harder. To be a great puncher you need more than power. You need timing, you need the right distance, the eye for the right opportunity, speed does help too. McClellan certainly was a very hard puncher but he lacked some of those attributes.

 

1. He was never ko'd at 168, Eubank couldn't in the rematch either, McClellan was getting outboxed and beat up after the first, if he kept landing Benn would be gone

2. Watch his fights and come back and say he isn't an elite puncher, this is like saying 'Shavers isn't an elite puncher'

3. McCallum didnt knock Jackson out it was a ref stoppage against a green Jackson who complained about the stoppage

4. Perhaps a little, it was a brutal KO

5. Robinson was an elite fighter, his power was diminished at 160 though, largely because he was small for the weight. Robinson's KO record against top middleweights doesnt appear that impressive the Fullmer KO aside. And Robinson is a far better boxer than McClellan who would land his power more consistantly. McClellan had more power largely because he was allot bigger/stronger than Ray

6. And Mcgrains wrong, overrated as a fighter perhaps, as a puncher no

7. Steward disagrees with Hearns being a bigger hitter than McClellan. I disagree with Robinson/Valdez. Jackson has a case

Not an elite puncher

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lYsLNpzcog[/ame]

 

It doesn't mean he wasn't gaining weight, supposedly something like 168 against Williams on HBOs weigh in, thats why Williams wanted the rematch at 157

 

Still Benn was never solid in the chin department. Surely a massive puncher like McLellan should have taken him out. Actually did McLellan land on Benn because the way you hype him up if he did land on any human being they would be knocked down.

He's not. He could bang but he was not an elite puncher IMO.

He still stopped him.

A little? His punch resistance was almost non-existant at that point.

Olsen, Graziano, Lamotta. He pretty much stopped or KO'd every top fighter in his division.

Who did McLellan stop that confirms him as an elite puncher?

Overrated by you in the power department definitely.

Ok I will concede Hearns if you provide a source.

Also valdez KO'd Bennie Briscoe, and showed he was an elite puncher. Prove to me that McLellan hit harder, purely looking at who they KO'd (and who they never KO'd) you would have to beleive that Valdez is the bigger puncher.

This video proves everything. How wrong am I?

A clip with just McLellans best KO's against mostly stiffs. Wow this dwarf's anything Robinson did. Bloody hell.

Anyone could make a video about say Harold Johnson and make him out to be a KO artist. Hell I'm sure we could even do a small video depicting Pep as a puncher.

 

Who did Shavers stop that had an iron chin?

If you look at the comparable journeymen McClellans was sparking them where other champions couldnt, thats significant. Just watching him punch, the powers obvious over pretty much any other MW

 

Shavers is not an elite puncher though.

 

You've goto the stage of scrambling facts and ignoring any evidence to protect your position. Using TKOs with no KDs in an argument over power is disingenous, a TKO if anything often proves a lack of power but I'm sure you couldn't care less. I suppose Calzaghe's TKOs show what a brutal puncher he was too atsch You state McClellan couldn't stop Benn yet ignore the fact Robinson couldn't stop countless lesser opponents he tee'd off, yet source him as a puncher, which he was but his single punches looked on film far easier to take than McClellans singles

Seriously everyone who came across McClellan from Steward to Benn to boxing analysts talk about him as 1 of the most brutal punchers ever yet a 14yo kid who can't punch himself seems to know better

 

Are the goal posts changing, decked them but like you say he didn't break a top chin either. Over the course of a long career getting the shot against more top fighters he'd obviously have more KOs over more contenders. We don't have that luxery with McClellan because his career was cut short. With the limited time he was around he was obviously a muderous puncher because he was doing things to common opponents that his contemparies couldn't come close to doing

We can play the same game with Julian Jackson and Hamed 'who did they actually KO'. Some guys you can just see that explosive 1 punch power

Benn's defense was very slick in that fight, he made McClellan miss allot, McClellan wasn't teeing off him at all and when he did land flush you saw Benn being knocked through the ropes

 

What evidence have I ignored?

What facts have I scrambled?

Here is where we have to use reasoning and common sense. Robinson failed to knockdown Jake Lamotta who had one of the best chins in boxing history, however he was able to hurt him enough to force the referee to stop it. That is a better claim than anything McLellan has IMO.

Could you see a lighter-puncher stopping Lamotta? Could you imagine Ralph Dupas doing that?

He wasn't?

It is all about individual circumstances, the TKO over Lamotta shows some serious power.

So does Harold Johnsons second round TKO off Von Clay show a lack of punching power?

Or Gavilan's over Gil Turner?

I did, someone with a average chin and a hittable style. That McLellan was landing on throughout. If McLellan was the puncher you say he was, Benn would have been stopped.

Any examples?

The exact same argument could be said about any fighter in the world though.

There was people Robinson failed to stop yes, but his record as a puncher still shows some very impressive wins, much more than McLellan was able to prove.

I am not doubting McLellan was a big puncher and probably in sheer impact he hit very very hard, perhaps harder than Robinson. But I am saying Robinson is the better puncher, McLellan may well hit harder, but Robinson punches harder. You get me, yeah?

OK guys who had a personal attachment to McLellan. I'm not saying they are biased and I am not denying McLellan did not hit hard, I am purely saying he was not an elite Middleweight puncher.

That is hyperbole, though.

You think brutal punchers you think Ike Williams, Joe Louis, Rodrigo Valdez etc... You don't tend to think of guys like McLellan or Jones Jr, do you?

Just waiting for you to have a wee dig. A bit later than expected, though.

I don't see how my ability, or inability in this case, to do an activity has any relation to my ability to judge other peoples ability in performing an activity.

If that was the case we would struggle to find commentators and analysts for Pacquiao vs Mayweather, would we not?

Also can you punch has hard as Robinson or McLellan? Because if you can't you are obviously not qualified to comment and your opinion meaningless. Aint that right?