Re: Footage of legends/disappointment etc

A fight, what else ?????

 

Was he?

 

Man I was surprised when I saw Tunney for the first time, I think he looked alright, and wouldn't have needed to make too many adjustments to have been successful in any era.

 

Disappointing. Fitz, Mcvey, Jeanette, I wasn't overly impressed with Loughran. Seems like 1-2 machine. Dempsey by today's standard's is a little crude but you can see he was an exceptional athlete and very modern fighter for his time. With a good trainer he would do well in any era. Tunney looks fantastic.
I'm impressed with the Greb footage. I see excellent balance and good speed. Aside from the weird technique he uses.

 

Then how did Greb beat some of the best boxers ever?

 

Harry Wills was a let down to me when footage of him against Firpo and Bartley Madden was released.

He was pretty dull, not fast on his feet, clinched a lot, didn’t punch in combination, kept his head static etc.

For all his reputation and the claims of how Dempsey ducked him, from watching that footage I was left wondering why Jack didn’t just step up and level him. Going by the available footage of both I’d heavily favour Dempsey to do so. Admittedly it is only limited footage of Wills and he was past his best for it so that could be a factor for sure.

 

As you said, Wills was past his prime by this point but he was always known for being a clincher and inside fighter. He was bigger but worse technically version of Jack Johnson in my opinion.

 

That’s exactly who he reminded me of most. Good call.

He was a great physical specimen but seemed to ignore those attributes to employ the style he did in the footage we have. I’d love to see a prime version against a Langford for example to get a better picture of his capabilities. His resume is pretty darn great.

 

sorry it took awhile...I watched Mike Gibbons and I liked his right uppercut. He used it a lot, when he used it on the inside, he kept it short, kept his elbow in and used his feet, legs, and body. MG also moved well after punching, unusual in video I've seen of fighters of that era. Most of the ones I've send tend to move in straight lines back and forth but MG used some angles.

I watched the short video of Tommy Gibbons vs. Dempsey. TG was tough, but seemed to lack the size and strength to trouble Dempsey. I tried to watch the fight with Bloomfield, but the film was running too fast, the guys with the towels were waving them so fast between rounds that they looked like they were going to fly, and the ref. looked like he was sprinting...that film needs to be adjusted for speed.

 

When I first studied boxing they told me Ketchel was this real wild man who threw Ko punches and would destroy most other middleweight, famous for knocking Jack Johnson down.

Then I saw him on film. Way too static, no semblance of any defense, and not one to throw as many dangerous type of punches as history said he did. Very unimaginative on offense. Mayne his only two films around show him at his worst, but I was expecting far more.

It was believed that Sam Mcvey and Joe Jeanette were not on film either in early 2000's. Thankful this was wrong.

McVey does look big and powerful, but he's a left handed clubber only who inches his way forwards and much to my disappointment quickly retreats during some exchanges vs Jim Battling Johnson. Only a few minutes of action can be viewed, but they show zero skills from Mcvey and a surprising retreat. Then I read some and McVey is the type to complain to the ref. He's not as tough as he looked.

Jeannete was the exact opposite. Shown vs Sam Langford. Jeannete he had a spear like Jab, moved well, and lots of guts. Took a good punch too.

 

If so, would make him more of a phenom.

 

A big factor in both of these fights was Wills’ hands. He had suffered a bad break which required surgery by a specialist to rebuild the bone. He was nervous about sitting down on his punches and reinjuring his hands. However, with that said there is a photograph of Madden (who was known for being extremely durable) taken just after the final bell in the Wills fight. In that photograph Maddens face looks eerily similar to Billy Collins’ face after fighting Luis Resto. Both of Madden’s eyes were horribly, grotesquely swollen and cut. Even trying to preserve his hands Wills dealt out massive damage. Against Firpo, again Wills is seen slowing the pace and preserving his hands but the telling thing there is how easily he he handles Firpo in the clinches. Firpos only assets were his strength and power. In the clinches Wills had no problem dealing with the strength of Firpo unlike anyone else weve seen against Firpo. Another interesting thing to note is that at one point Firpo tries to rush in, gets hit with a stiff jab by Wills, and wobbles backwards as if he ran into a straight right. It says a lot that Wills could wobble an onrushing caveman like Firpo with a jab. But theres no doubt that five years earlier, at 30, Wills was a different, more complete fighter than what we see on film of him.

 

Where do you rate Wills in an all time sense?

 

I think the thing people need to remember about Greb was that even in his own time he wasnt considered a “pretty” or classical boxer. It was said he had weird style, often looked to lack fundamentals, etc. but here is the thing. If you are very fast, very hard to hit, very busy, and very tough and have incredible stamina when the fight goes to the cards the odds are in your favor. Greb was said to be as fast as a bantamweight in terms of his footwork, head movement, and hand speed. He was always on the move so he was very difficult to catch, catch clean and catch more than once which is important when you factor in how durable he was. Meanwhile he had very fast hands and let them go. So its not hard for me to see a guy who didnt look pretty but had such a combination of intangibles, and looked to go to the cards, that he was very very difficult to beat. Its why the argument that he didnt have enough punching power to compete against this guy or that in fantasy matchups just doesnt jive because Greb never looked to use power to win or change fights. He was all about landing blizzards of punches, limiting his opponents effectiveness, and going to the cards. Thats a very very tough guy to beat.

 

I dont know. Ive never really considered it. I think he was no worse than the second best heavyweight in the world for about a decade and maybe the best. Thats pretty impressive. I think hes probably difficult to place all time because he never got to test himself against the two men considered the best during that decade. I have a lot of admiration for him as a fighter and as a man though.