...as a fan of both men, i must say my instinct on the night was the fight should have been stopped in the 1st...now, im more of a carwin fan than a lesnar fan, so iv waited for the furore to die down and rewatched it with, perhaps, a less jaundiced eye..... not to take a damn thing away from lesnar, as its not his fault when a fight is or isnt stopped, and he did survive and come out for the second and win the damn thing....but the word to watch here is 'survive'....iv seen so many ufc bouts stopped for much less of a beating than lesnar received in the first...when carwin had him down the first time he was not intelligently defending himself..he assumed a prone position and covered up..no contribution to the fight, no defensive strategy...all he did was rely on his chin and take the punches..constantly..for minutes....there were at least three clear points where the fight would/should have been stopped... ok, bottom line is carwins conditioning was deploreable, although this may have been due to the emotional involvement of fighting for the title rather than a lack of fitness...also, in his head, i reckon he had won the fight..when the ref DIDNT stop the fight, carwin suddenly had a mountain to climb again and he no longer had the tools to do so.... hats off to lesnar, his conditionin, and heart, should now be unquestioned..but i cant help but feel that carwin got the shitty end of the stick here and 9 times out of 10 his performance would have brought about a stoppage..... brock owes carwin a rematch....
I probably agree with you. Brock was definately NOT intelligently defending himself and Carwin had decked him and was pouring it on for what seemed like an eternity. I don't think anyone could really have argued if the referee had stopped the fight in Carwins favour. There definatly needs to be a rematch some time in the future.
Brock was intelligently defending himself. He was covering up as best he could and trying to push Carwin off with his legs. He was trying to throw back from time to time (with ineffective strikes sure) and was moving his upper body. There is a difference between not intelligently defending yourself and not having many good defensive options. Furthermore, let's look at some prior title fights. Couture took more of a beating than Lesnar before the ref stopped it. Against Serra in the first fight GSP took more of a beating before the fight was stopped... hthis isn't some hugely unprecedented act. Usually in championship fights the ref waits until the losing fighter stops trying or is actually out. Lesnar was neither. Also, let's not paint a picture as if Lesnar was on the bottom getting hammered until the bell saved him and then came out for the second round. Lesnar got up IN the first round and had Carwin pinned on the cage by the end. It isn't as if he was sprawled out on the ground when the bell rang and after a minute of recovery was able to fight back. He was fighting back in the first round.
I'm sorry but Carwin's GnP was sorry that night. After a good 30 seconds he looked lost with Lesnar underneath him. Codeman has got it right, Lesnar was defending himself as best he could and even got himself back to his feet. How in the world does Carwin let that happen after throwing 50 punches, undefeated with all his fights coming by KO and being a Division II wrestler? By overexerting himself and not picking those shots. There have been fights stopped much quicker but that wasn't always a good thing according to the majority of fans. Lesnar is the champ, and Carwin's punches kept getting slower and slower. Besides a good elbow, why stop the fight if the man has nothing on those punches. I think Carwin owes us and himself some work on his conditioning and focus in there.
I say due to the referees clear biased during fights, you need to actually KO a guy now. If the mother****er is still awake the fight must continue. This is the only way for no criticism of the refs. This way everything is fair and even. No more ref stoppages only fighter stoppages!
Nuke, do you have a problem with referees being biased and giving champions a greater chance to defend their title, or challengers a greater chance to win a title, over relatively lower level fights in which case they might stop it earlier? I mean, I ALWAYS thought a champion deserves every chance to keep his belt, or a challenger deserves every chance to win a belt, as long as it isn't unnecessarily unsafe (which this clearly wasn't). On the other hand, I believe that significantly lower level fighters should not be subjected to the same level of punishment for their relatively less important fights.
im not in any way belittling brock, huge achievement to take that punishment...and yes, carwin had gassed sufficiently for lesnar to get back up..no way am i suggesting that the bell 'saved' brock or anything like it, just making the point that in my opinion, during the onslaught there were, to me, at least three points where the fight could have been stopped and lesnars defence, for me, did not constitute intelligently defending oneself within the rules of the sport..... is it ok then to smiply turtle up , make little or no contribution towards the fight and let your oponent gas out...only diference here between mir and lesnar was lesnars abiltiy to take the hurt..im not getting involved ina slagging match, i have always been a fan of both fighters and like i say, huge respect to lesnar for winning the damn thing....perhaps my point should be there is inconsistent refereeing and that i have seen fights stopped in a fighters interest for much less....again, this aint brocks fault...he just did what hendid and got the win....respect
Definently.. We should all be in agreement on this. I'm not the one to slag either, not my style.. Look at my post count lol. I have been collecting a bunch of UFC cards over the past few years and we should really start paying more attention to which refs proove to be the most inconsistent. When it boils down, I was dissapointed in Carwin's conditioning, spending himself while on top, and letting the fight slip through his fingers. Having said that.. Maybe I shouldn't be as impressed with Lesnar as I had been since last Saturday. He has heart and a sturdy chin, along with some second rate stand up. These two can only get better and I'm sure a rematch will fall into place by the end of next year.
When it is the big money fighter, or the big money fight, there is more pressure on the referee. That's only natural. More people are watching, more people are going to hate you if you make a bad call, and irreparable damage can be done to your career. When the referee didn't call the Kimbo vs Thompson fight when Kimbo was being hit, I understood. Kimbo looked as though he were in trouble, but he didn't seem to be hurt badly by the shots he was taking. I thought it was a bad call when he jumped in to save Thompson. Same thing during the first round of the Roy Nelson and Kimbo fight. Kimbo looked helpless position wise, in the crucifix, but Roy didn't look like he was really hurting him. With Lesnar and Carwin, Lesnar was hurt. Lesnar got tagged, assumed a fetal position, and looked for a place to fall. He was in trouble. But...Lesnar was not limp on the ground. Lesnar was pushing Carwin off, covering up, and throwing strikes back. He may have even thrown some of the punches just to let the ref know he wanted to continue, rather than a real attempt to hurt Carwin. He also got back to his feet, and went on to win. I believe the ref made the right call.
i cant understand why shane didnt simply stand back and the ref would have had to stand brock up.....
The proof is in the pudding, Brock was not hurt enough to stop the fight because he was fine afterwords. I wouldn't have argued too much with a stoppage, but getting fights called on volume rather than actual damage or at least having the guy trapped (Matt Hughes on BJ) needs to be stopped.
Sounds like an intelligent defensive strategy which actually worked for Lesnar in this situation, so i think u answered your own question. That strategy worked for Ali v Foreman too.
my gut reaction on the night was that lesnar was sufficiently stunned that he was in harms way..on several occasions....he did however weather the storm...hats off to him...on rewatching it, i still feel that another fighter in another fight may well have been stopped...but bottom line, he wasnt and came back and done the damage....was just interested to hear other views now the knee jerk stuff is done and dusted... and ali comparison seems facile...ali contributed all the way thru that fight with intelligent in fighting, hurtful punches etc...brock did not contribute in that first round in nearly such a meaningful way..... i doubt either fighter will fight the same way in rematch which makes it, for me, a fascinating prospect...i dont know how lesnar can change his tyle, but think carwin can do more to improve...
